1 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA 2 ---------------------------x 3 CARA LESLIE ALEXANDER : et al., : 4 : Plaintiffs, : 5 : v. : Civil No. 96-2163 (RCL) 6 : FEDERAL BUREAU OF : 7 INVESTIGATION et al., : : 8 Defendants. : Volume 1 ---------------------------x 9 Washington, D.C. 10 Monday, December 14, 1998 11 12 Deposition of 13 LINDA R. TRIPP 14 a witness, called for examination by counsel 15 for Plaintiffs pursuant to notice and 16 agreement of counsel, beginning at 17 approximately 10:23 a.m. at the law offices 18 of Judicial Watch, 501 School Street 19 Southwest, Washington, D.C., before Joan V. 20 Cain, notary public in and for the District 21 of Columbia, when were present on behalf of 22 the respective parties: 2 1 APPEARANCES: 2 On behalf of Plaintiffs: 3 LARRY KLAYMAN, ESQUIRE PAUL ORFANEDES, ESQUIRE 4 DEBORAH BERLINER, ESQUIRE Judicial Watch 5 501 School Street Southwest, Suite 725 Washington, D.C. 20024 6 (888) JWETHIC 7 On behalf of Defendants Federal Bureau of Investigation and the Executive 8 Office of the President: 9 ELIZABETH J. SHAPIRO, ESQUIRE JAMES J. GILLIGAN, ESQUIRE 10 Federal Programs Branch Civil Division 11 901 E Street Northwest, Room 988 Washington, D.C. 20530 12 (202) 514-5302 13 PHILIP D. BARTZ, ESQUIRE Office of the Deputy Assistant 14 Attorney General for Federal Programs United States Department of Justice 15 Ninth & Pennsylvania Avenues Northwest Washington, D.C. 20530 16 (202) 514-5421 17 On behalf of Defendant Federal Bureau of Investigation: 18 JON D. PIFER, ESQUIRE 19 Office of General Counsel Federal Bureau of Investigation 20 935 Pennsylvania Avenue Northwest Washington, D.C. 20535 21 (202) 324-9665 22 3 1 APPEARANCES (CONT'D): 2 On behalf of Defendant Hillary Rodham Clinton: 3 PAUL B. GAFFNEY, ESQUIRE Williams & Connolly 4 725 Twelfth Street Northwest Washington, D.C. 20005 5 (202) 434-5000 6 On behalf of The White House: 7 SALLY PAXTON, ESQUIRE Special Assistant Counsel to the President 8 The White House Washington, D.C. 20500 9 (202) 456-5079 10 On behalf of Defendant Department of Defense: 11 ANNE L. WEISMANN, ESQUIRE Federal Programs Branch 12 Civil Division United States Department of Justice 13 901 E Street Northwest, Room 1034 Washington, D.C. 20530 14 (202) 514-3395 15 BRAD WIEGMANN, ESQUIRE Office of General Counsel 16 United States Department of Defense 1600 Defense Pentagon, Room 3C975 17 Washington, D.C. 20301 (703) 695-3392 18 On behalf of Defendant Nussbaum: 19 ROBERT B. MAZUR, ESQUIRE 20 Wachtell Lipton Rosen & Katz 51 West 52nd Street 21 New York, New York 10019-6618 (212) 403-1000 22 4 1 APPEARANCES (CONT'D): 2 On behalf of the Office of the Independent Counsel: 3 JOSEPH M. DITKOFF, ESQUIRE 4 STEPHEN BINHAK, ESQUIRE Office of Independent Counsel 5 1001 Pennsylvania Avenue Northwest, Suite 490 North 6 Washington, D.C. 20004 (202) 514-8688 7 8 On behalf of Deponent: 9 ANTHONY ZACCAGNINI, ESQUIRE ANTHONY LARDIERI, ESQUIRE 10 Semmes Bowen & Semmes 250 West Pratt Street 11 Baltimore, Maryland 21201 (410) 385-3935 12 13 14 * * * * * 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 5 1 C O N T E N T S 2 EXAMINATION BY: PAGE 3 Counsel for Plaintiffs 10 4 TRIPP DEPOSITION EXHIBITS: 5 No. 1 - Subpoena, Attachments 11 6 No. 2 - Renotice of Deposition 11 7 No. 3 - Response to Plaintiffs' 12 Request for Documents 8 No. 4 - Privilege Log 13 9 No. 5 - Letter, Landes to Zaccagnini, 14 10 Attachments 11 No. 6 - New York Post News Story 136 12 No. 7 - Defendant's Response to 206 Request #3 13 No. 8 - "JCS Privileged" List 277 14 15 16 * * * * * 17 18 19 20 21 22 6 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. 3 This is the video deposition of Linda R. 4 Tripp taken by the counsel for the Plaintiffs 5 in the matter of Cara Alexander et al. v. the 6 Federal Bureau of Investigation et al., held 7 in the United States District Court for the 8 District of Columbia, Case No. 96-2123, held 9 in the offices of Judicial Watch, 501 School 10 Street Southwest, Washington, D.C., on this 11 date, December 14, 1998, and at the time 12 indicated on the video screen, which is 13 10:23 a.m. 14 My name is Sylvanus Holley; I'm 15 the videographer. The court reporter today 16 is Joan Cain from the firm of Beta Reporting. 17 Will counsel now introduce 18 themselves? 19 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Anthony Zaccagnini 20 on behalf of Linda Tripp from Semmes Bowen & 21 Semmes in Baltimore. 22 MR. LARDIERI: Anthony Lardieri, 7 1 also on behalf of Linda Tripp, also from 2 Semmes Bowen & Semmes. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Let's redo that 4 because he was panning to me at the time. 5 Let's reintroduce ourselves. 6 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Anthony Zaccagnini 7 from Semmes Bowen & Semmes in Baltimore on 8 behalf of Linda Tripp. 9 MR. LARDIERI: Anthony Lardieri 10 also from Semmes Bowen & Semmes in Baltimore 11 on behalf of Linda Tripp. 12 MS. SHAPIRO: Elizabeth Shapiro 13 from the Department of Justice on behalf of 14 the Executive Office of the President and the 15 FBI. 16 MS. PAXTON: Sally Paxton from The 17 White House. 18 MS. WEISMANN: Anne Weismann from 19 the Department of Justice on behalf of the 20 Department of Defense. 21 MR. GAFFNEY: Paul Gaffney, 22 Williams & Connolly, on behalf of the First 8 1 Lady. 2 MR. MAZUR: Robert Mazur, Wachtell 3 Lipton Rosen & Katz, representing Bernard 4 Nussbuam. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Larry Klayman, 6 chairman and general counsel of Judicial 7 Watch on behalf of Plaintiffs. 8 MR. FITTON: Tom Fitton, President 9 of Judicial Watch. 10 MR. ORFANEDES: Paul Orfanedes on 11 behalf of Judicial Watch. 12 MS. BERLINER: Deborah Berliner on 13 behalf of Judicial Watch. 14 MR. BINHAK: Stephen Binhak, 15 associate independent counsel on behalf of 16 the United States through the Independent 17 Counsel, Ken Starr. 18 MR. DITKOFF: Joseph Ditkoff 19 associate independent counsel, Independent 20 Counsel's Office, by Kenneth Starr, 21 Independent Counsel. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: If you can identify 9 1 the people along the back row there? 2 MS. PETERSON: Michelle Peterson 3 from The White House. 4 MR. WIEGMANN: Brad Wiegmann, 5 Department of Defense. 6 MR. PIFER: John Pifer, FBI General 7 Counsel's Office. 8 MR. GILLIGAN: James Gilligan, 9 Department of Justice. 10 MR. BARTZ: Phil Bartz, Department 11 of Justice. 12 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Will the witness 13 please be sworn? 14 Whereupon, 15 LINDA R. TRIPP 16 was called as a witness and, having been 17 first duly sworn, was examined and testified 18 as follows: 19 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Mr. Klayman, 20 before we begin, I'd like to notify all the 21 counsel present that in the likely event that 22 this deposition were to go over one day's 10 1 duration the next available date in terms of 2 Mrs. Tripp and her counsel would be Friday, 3 the 18th, and I would propose that date in 4 the event that we do have a carryover. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Understood. 6 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFFS 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Ms. Tripp, would you please state 9 your name? 10 A My name is Linda R. Tripp. 11 Q And when were you born? 12 A November '49. 13 Q And where was that? 14 A Jersey City, New Jersey. 15 Q Just run me through briefly what 16 your educational background is. 17 A Twelve years of public schools in 18 Morris County, New Jersey, and follow on with 19 Kathryn Gibbs in Montclair, New Jersey. 20 Q Did you receive a subpoena in this 21 lawsuit from the Plaintiffs sent to you by 22 Judicial Watch? 11 1 A I did. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm going to ask that 3 the court mark as Exhibit 1 a copy of that 4 subpoena and ask you to identify it. 5 (Tripp Deposition Exhibit No. 1 6 was marked for identification.) 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Is this a copy of the subpoena you 9 were served with? 10 A Yes, it is. 11 Q And recently your counsel was sent 12 a renotice of deposition pursuant to this 13 subpoena. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll ask that that be 15 marked as Exhibit 2. 16 (Tripp Deposition Exhibit No. 2 17 was marked for identification.) 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Have you seen this document before? 20 A I'd like a chance to review it just 21 briefly, if you don't mind. 22 Yes. 12 1 Q This subpoena requires you to 2 produce certain documents and things, and 3 have you produced documents and things 4 pursuant to the subpoena, which is Exhibit 1, 5 as modified by the court's order, which is 6 attached to Exhibit 2, which is the renotice 7 of deposition? 8 A We have. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: And I'll show you 10 what I'll ask the court reporter to mark as 11 Exhibit 3. 12 (Tripp Deposition Exhibit No. 3 13 was marked for identification.) 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Which is Linda R. 15 Tripp's response to Plaintiffs' request for 16 documents pursuant to subpoena. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Is this a written copy of the 19 document response? 20 A It is. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: And along with that 22 document response was produced a privilege 13 1 log, which I'll ask be marked as Exhibit 4. 2 (Tripp Deposition Exhibit No. 4 3 was marked for identification.) 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Showing you Exhibit 4, are those 6 documents which you have not produced subject 7 to claim of privilege as listed on the 8 privilege log? 9 Is the answer yes? 10 A Yes, it is. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Now, pursuant to an 12 agreement with your counsel, Mr. Zaccagnini, 13 the actual privilege documents have been sent 14 to the Court for review in camera. Is that 15 correct, Mr. Zaccagnini? 16 MR. ZACCAGNINI: That is correct, 17 Mr. Klayman. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Thank you. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: And I'll show you 20 what I'll ask the court reporter to mark as 21 Exhibit 5. We'll call it composite Exhibit 22 5. It consists of the documents which you 14 1 produced today. 2 (Tripp Deposition Exhibit No. 5 3 was marked for identification.) 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Showing you Exhibit 5, the first 6 document produced as part of this composite 7 exhibit is a letter from the Inspector- 8 General to Anthony Zaccagnini on August 4, 9 1998, consisting of two pages signed by 10 Shirley J. Landes, chief; is that correct? 11 A Yes, that's correct. 12 Q The second document is a letter 13 from Semmes Bowen & Semmes of July 10, 1998, 14 to the Inspector-General, care of Leonard 15 Trahan Junior, from Anthony Zaccagnini; is 16 that correct? 17 A That's correct. 18 Q The third document attached as part 19 of composite Exhibit 5 is a letter of March 20 19, 1998, also stamped March 23, 1998, 21 presumably a date of receipt, from the 22 Inspector-General to Anthony Zaccagnini 15 1 signed by Leonard Trahan Junior which 2 contains certain attachments; is that 3 correct? 4 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I don't believe 5 there are any attachments to that letter. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Those are not 7 attachments. That's a separate document. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q So there's one page. You've seen 10 that letter that you've produced here today? 11 A A letter with a FOIA sheet attached 12 to it, yes. 13 Q The second page is a FOIA sheet. 14 Following that are photographs, two 15 photographs. Is that of Clifford Bernath? 16 A Yes, it is. 17 Q Next is one photograph with 18 Clifford Bernath with a microphone, that's 19 the next document? 20 A It is. 21 Q And then there appears to be a 22 biography of Clifford Bernath, principal 16 1 deputy assistant secretary, Defense Public 2 Affairs? 3 A That's correct. 4 Q And then a letter to Strom Thurmond 5 consisting of ten pages of text and one page 6 of an organogram styled "Office of the 7 Assistant to the Secretary of Defense, Public 8 Affairs"; is that correct that? 9 A I didn't count the pages. It ends 10 with answer 26 and a follow-on paragraph 11 signed by Ken Bacon, yes. 12 Q Plus an organogram at the end? 13 A Exactly. 14 Q The next document which you 15 produced is a handwritten notation, "Linda, 16 just thought you might find this of 17 interest," with an attachment, which appears 18 to be a listing of various individuals who 19 have met an unfortunate end -- 20 A That's correct. 21 Q During the Clinton Administration. 22 Who sent that little note to you, "just 17 1 thought you'd find this of interest"? 2 A That was the second such piece of 3 information in that form that I received from 4 Monica Lewinsky. 5 Q This is Monica Lewinsky's 6 handwriting? 7 A It does not appear to be Monica 8 Lewinsky's handwriting. 9 Q Do you know whose handwriting it 10 is? 11 A I don't. It was given to me, 12 however, by Monica Lewinsky. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Zaccagnini, is 14 this something you want to get into under 15 seal later? 16 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Yes, I would 17 prefer that all that be handled under seal. 18 If you want to portion off that deposition 19 separately towards the end, I think that 20 would be advisable. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: I can identify on the 22 record, however, who likely sent it. 18 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q You say that Monica Lewinsky handed 3 this to you? 4 A No, actually, she didn't hand it to 5 me. She left it as she had the -- either its 6 predecessor or its successor, depending on 7 the timing, which I'm unclear of as of this 8 date, left it on my chair early a.m. prior to 9 my arrival at my office. 10 Q When was that, approximately? 11 A There were two, as I've said. One 12 was in late summer and one was in the fall 13 time frame. 14 Q Of this year? 15 A Prior to October of '97. 16 Q Just to be absolutely sure, you 17 don't know whose handwriting this is? 18 A I'm sorry. I don't. 19 Q What happened to the other document 20 that was left on your chair? 21 A I don't know. I don't know that I 22 even took it home from the Pentagon. 19 1 Q Did it also contain information on 2 people that had died in and around the 3 Clinton Administration? 4 A Yeah, but it was a lengthier 5 document. I don't know that it had more 6 names. I've never counted the names, but it 7 had other addendum, perhaps more explanation 8 of each and every case. 9 Q Did you ever ask Ms. Lewinsky who 10 had provided the document? 11 A I never asked her directly who 12 provided the document. 13 Q Did you ask her indirectly? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And what did she tell you? Well, 16 how did you ask her indirectly? 17 A It came up in conversation when we 18 discussed the documents both times, and both 19 times it was in a conversation trying to 20 affect the outcome of a decision I had to 21 make about testifying truthfully or not in 22 the case of Kathleen Willey. 20 1 Q Maybe I misunderstood, but what I'm 2 trying to understand is how would that be 3 indirect? It seems that you're having a 4 direct conversation with Ms. Lewinsky. 5 A I did have a direct conversation, 6 but I did not ask her directly this doesn't 7 look like your handwriting, who wrote it. 8 And immediately it was instantly familiar to 9 me as not being Ms. Lewinsky's handwriting. 10 Q Do you know where the second 11 document is today? 12 A I don't. In fact, I have searched, 13 as you can well imagine. As a matter of 14 fact, I didn't come across either one in 15 preparation for my grand jury testimony, 16 which I very much would have liked to have 17 come across, and only came across this one 18 recently. I had thought that along with 19 other what I considered to be important 20 papers I thought that my attorney had custody 21 of all, and we have reviewed both home files 22 and files maintained in the custody of my 21 1 attorney, and we have not regrettably found 2 it. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Zaccagnini, if 4 you'll permit me to ask this? If you want to 5 go on a different record, that would be fine. 6 I'm going to save more of the detailed 7 testimony to the end in terms of threats to 8 make it easier. But if I can ask this one 9 question: 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Did you take the providing of this 12 document, which we've just identified, as a 13 threat? 14 A I did. 15 Q And who did you take it as a threat 16 from? 17 MR. ZACCAGNINI: At this point, 18 Mr. Klayman I would ask that we move to -- 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Confidential? 20 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Yes, thank you. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Now, you are aware that in terms of 22 1 Plaintiffs' request that they've asked for 2 not just traditional documents but any types 3 of recordations of information. 4 MR. ZACCAGNINI: At this point, 5 Mr. Klayman, as indicated in our privilege 6 log, we've asserted privilege to any such 7 response to that request, and I would 8 instruct my client neither to acknowledge the 9 existence of any such items or comment on the 10 existence of any such items. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Which designation is 12 that where you're asserting a privilege? 13 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I believe it's 14 number 6 and 20, if I'm not mistaken. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: 6(b)? 16 MR. ZACCAGNINI: That's correct. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: So 6(b) would subsume 18 any tape recordings or diskettes or anything 19 of that nature? 20 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Yes, and it's 21 similarly raised in response to requests 22 numbers 8, 19, and 20. Anticipating the 23 1 scope of those questions was broader than 2 what I'd hoped it would be and as broad as 3 you would hope it would be, I'm raising the 4 same privilege as to those inquiries as well. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: You are aware that 6 Judge Lamberth has modified the scope of our 7 documents request? 8 MR. ZACCAGNINI: That's correct. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Ms. Tripp, when I refer to 11 Filegate, do you know what I'm talking about? 12 A Yes, I do. 13 Q What do you understand Filegate to 14 be? 15 A I understand it to be the possible 16 illegal obtaining of the confidential FBI 17 files of individuals -- in my understanding, 18 it was individuals from the Bush White House 19 and other Republican individuals whose files 20 found their way to The White House. 21 Q Bush and Reagan White House? 22 A Yes. 24 1 Q Is there any reference, either 2 direct or indirect, in any documents or tape 3 recordings or diskettes or any type of 4 recordation which you have not produced today 5 to Filegate? 6 A No, I don't believe any. 7 Q Did you ever discuss Filegate with 8 Monica Lewinsky? 9 A Briefly. 10 Q What was discussed? 11 A In the late fall we discussed 12 briefly my personal framework of reference 13 having to do with issues, shall we say, that 14 I had witnessed or been exposed to during my 15 tenure at The White House. Filegate had 16 proven to be one. 17 Needless to say, at the time I did 18 not -- I did not understand it to be Filegate 19 during my time at The White House. It was 20 only subsequent to my departure that it 21 became known to me and helped me identify 22 what it was I had seen. 25 1 Q When you say "late fall," of what 2 year? 3 A '97. 4 Q And did this conversation take 5 place in person or did it take place by 6 telephone or what means? 7 A I really don't recall. Most likely 8 in person. The vast majority of my 9 conversations with Monica Lewinsky were in 10 person. 11 Q And how did the issue come up? 12 Perhaps you've just described that but -- 13 A I thought I had, yeah. 14 Q And what did you tell Ms. Lewinsky 15 about what you observed at The White House? 16 A I told her about what I considered 17 to be unscrupulous behavior, that there 18 seemed to be no moral absolutes, and that 19 there was no sense of right or wrong, and I 20 cited Filegate as one of those instances, 21 among others. 22 Q Did you cite any things that you 26 1 had observed relating to Filegate when you 2 discussed the matter with Ms. Lewinsky? 3 A I don't recall to what degree of 4 specificity I got into the conversation with 5 Monica. I think it was more to make a point. 6 Filegate was one among other issues that I 7 addressed with her during that conversation. 8 Q You told her that you had witnessed 9 certain events which related to Filegate, in 10 retrospect? 11 A I referenced the issue of Filegate 12 and said that I felt that I had personal 13 knowledge of that issue and that I believed 14 it to have been a violation. 15 Q Did you tell her what personal 16 knowledge you had? 17 A No. 18 Q Have you ever relayed to anyone 19 what personal knowledge you had of Filegate? 20 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Other than 21 counsel, Mr. Klayman? 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 27 1 Q Other than counsel and perhaps you 2 don't want to assert the privilege on that. 3 A In terms of an in-depth 4 conversation or any dialogue at all, again 5 with specificity that would be counsel. I 6 discussed Filegate with Tony Snow a long time 7 ago and in the early summer of 1996 with 8 Lucianne Goldberg when I endeavored to write 9 a book to expose several of the scandals that 10 I had witnessed during my time at The White 11 House and in an attempt to validate Gary 12 Aldrich's book when it was published, so it 13 was just at that time that I approached 14 Lucianne Goldberg or she approached me and we 15 discussed Filegate among many other things. 16 Q Let's back up to Monica Lewinsky. 17 Has there ever been a communication between 18 you and Monica Lewinsky where anyone recorded 19 an issue related to Filegate in writing or in 20 any kind of recordation like tape recordings? 21 A No. 22 Q So this was just an oral 28 1 conversation, never any notations made or any 2 recordation? 3 A No. No. I have never kept -- 4 well, I shouldn't say I have never. I had 5 not at that time kept notes of any kind, and 6 that had been a conscious decision also 7 during my tenure at The White House. 8 Q When was it that you discussed 9 Filegate with Tony Snow? 10 A Prior to the nomenclature being 11 accepted as a conventional title for the 12 issue, I had discussed it with Tony Snow. 13 Q Was it prior to it even becoming 14 known that there was a controversy called 15 Filegate? 16 A Precisely. 17 Q When was that conversation, 18 approximately? 19 A I can't give you any detailed 20 memory of the time frame. I believe I 21 discussed some of my observations with Tony 22 Snow during the time that I was still on 29 1 White House staff, in confidence, and he has 2 never betrayed that confidence. 3 Q So that would be prior to the time 4 you left The White House? 5 A Oh, yes. 6 Q And when was it you left The White 7 House? 8 A August '94. 9 Q Does that help refresh your 10 recollection as to when you had this 11 conversation with Tony? 12 A No, because I had many -- Tony Snow 13 is a friend of mine, and we had many 14 conversations both about The White House and 15 about many other topics, and I just don't 16 remember when this conversation would have 17 taken place. I can tell you that it had to 18 have been after May of '93 and before August 19 of '94. 20 Q How is it you're able to pinpoint 21 it to those dates? 22 A Because through April of '93 I was 30 1 working in the immediate office of the 2 President with Bruce Lindsey, Nancy Hernreich 3 and the President, and so I would not have 4 been exposed at that time to this issue. 5 However, when I made the move to the 6 counsel's office at the request of Vince 7 Foster and Bernie Nussbuam, it was thereafter 8 that I became familiar with this issue. 9 So I'm dating my possibility of 10 this conversation having taken place from the 11 earliest possible date would have been in May 12 of '94 and the last date while still employed 13 at The White House would have been August of 14 '94 and conceivably well after that when I 15 was at the Pentagon. 16 Q And when you discussed this with 17 Tony Snow, were you there in person with Tony 18 or was it by phone? 19 A By phone, right. 20 Q Who called who? Was it you calling 21 him? 22 A No, actually, Tony almost routinely 31 1 called me. Sporadically, we kept in touch. 2 Q Because he's a good friend? 3 A He is a good friend, yes. 4 Q And how did the issue arise with 5 regard to what you had observed concerning a 6 controversy later becoming known as Filegate? 7 A Actually, it arose from another 8 scandal. In my mind, our conversations about 9 this subject actually evolved from 10 conversations having to do with something 11 else. 12 Q Something called Travelgate? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And how did it arise? Tell us what 15 you told Tony at the time. 16 A Well, it was not in any great 17 detail because, again, I did not get into any 18 great level of specificity with Tony. It was 19 more my impression in a generic overview of 20 the types of concerns I had but not 21 specifics. 22 Q And what did you tell Tony 32 1 generally about these concerns? 2 MR. ZACCAGNINI: If you could be 3 more specific, Mr. Klayman. Here's 4 Ms. Tripp's concern. The substance of that 5 conversation dealt primarily with the Travel 6 Office issue. I think it would be somewhat 7 beyond the scope of Judge Lamberth's order to 8 have Ms. Tripp recount her conversations 9 relating to Travelgate, as it's commonly 10 known, but I do think that a narrowly- 11 tailored question or a narrowly-tailored 12 answer could get you what you're looking for. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q And I'm asking what was discussed 15 with regard to the issue of FBI files or 16 government files, if anything? 17 A That files -- I had seen files that 18 were not what White House Office of White 19 House Personnel 201 or personnel files looked 20 like on certain individuals. 21 Q And did you tell Tony where you saw 22 those files? 33 1 A I did. 2 Q And where did you see them? 3 A Several locations, traveling in by 4 the hand of Bill Kennedy into Vince Foster's 5 office prior to Vince Foster's death, not 6 exiting that office with Mr. Kennedy when he 7 left. 8 Q The files not exiting? 9 A Right. Again, in Vince Foster's 10 safe, which was housed in Bernie Nussbuam's 11 office but which Bernie Nussbuam probably 12 never opened. This safe was, as I said, 13 housed and co-existed with another small 14 safe, and I think Bernie Nussbuam probably 15 never opened it. 16 I know Vince Foster had it opened 17 routinely by his assistant virtually daily, 18 but this was not opened by -- Bernie didn't 19 use the safe. So there and in Bill Kennedy's 20 office and in Craig Livingstone's office. 21 Q When you told Tony this, were you 22 taking any notes? 34 1 A No, I was not. 2 Q Was there any kind of recordation 3 of the conversation? 4 A No, Mr. Klayman. I made a 5 conscious decision, a decision I regret 6 today, not to keep notes or a diary or 7 journal at all during my White House tenure. 8 I felt at that time that my duty and loyalty 9 was to the Presidency but also and as well to 10 the incumbent and felt that that would be a 11 disloyal thing to do, precisely during 12 Travelgate, during Waco, during RTC, during 13 Vince Foster's death and its aftermath, and 14 so, yes, I made a conscious decision not to 15 and so no, I have no notes of that time 16 period. 17 Q Did you describe anything else to 18 Mr. Snow when you had this discussion with 19 him, other than what you just described? 20 A First of all, it was several 21 discussions over a period of many months and, 22 again, sporadically. It wasn't a -- it 35 1 wasn't weekly. It probably wasn't even 2 monthly, but it was often enough so that we 3 stayed in touch, and he was well aware of my 4 concerns early on, and I'm sorry I didn't get 5 that second part of your -- 6 Q Was there anything else that was 7 discussed? 8 A Oh, definitely, yes. 9 Q In this area during those various 10 conversations? 11 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Limited to file- 12 related matters. 13 THE WITNESS: No. No. I'm sorry. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q When you described these files that 16 were taken by Mr. Kennedy into Mr. Foster's 17 office that he did not come out with, the 18 same files being housed in Vince Foster's 19 safe which was kept in Bernie Nussbuam's 20 office, did you advise Tony Snow which files 21 they were? 22 A No. 36 1 Q How did you know what files they 2 were? 3 A First of all, I didn't know at the 4 time what they were until I saw one of them 5 on Vince Foster's desk, but, no, I did not at 6 any time relay to anyone the names of the 7 files that I saw. 8 Q At the time that you saw these 9 files being carried in by Mr. Kennedy did 10 this raise concerns with you at that time? 11 A No, not until I saw the file. The 12 individuals who attended the meeting caused 13 me some concern, yeah, so I was curious. 14 Q Which individuals attended the 15 meeting? 16 A Maggie Williams on behalf of the 17 First Lady as chief of staff to the First 18 Lady, as I said, Bill Kennedy, and Maggie 19 Williams was in and out of these meetings and 20 not an attendee who remained the entire time; 21 however, she was present during the 22 particular meeting I'm referencing right now 37 1 when Mr. Kennedy walked in with certain 2 files. Catherine Cornelius, Harry, the movie 3 producer, Thomas something or other, David 4 Watkins, and, of course, Vince Foster, and 5 the meeting was held in Vince Foster's 6 office. 7 Q What was it about the attendance of 8 these various people that caused you concern? 9 A It was a bizarre compilation of 10 folks, number one, and I asked Deb Gorham 11 what the subject of the meeting was and she 12 told me. 13 Q When did you ask Deb Gorham that? 14 Immediately after the meeting? 15 A No, as they filed into the meeting. 16 Q And who is Deborah Gorham? 17 A She was Vince Foster's assistant at 18 the time. 19 Q And what did Deborah Gorham tell 20 you about the meeting? 21 A She didn't tell me. She wrote down 22 "Travel Office." 38 1 Q She wrote it down on a notepad? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And why is it she wrote it down 4 rather than responding verbally, to the best 5 of your knowledge? 6 A I don't know except that the Travel 7 Office situation was treated very, very 8 carefully and with great discretion. It was 9 very quiet. 10 Q And it was your impression that she 11 didn't want to say verbally because this was 12 a hush-hush matter? Was that your 13 impression? 14 A I was standing by her desk when I 15 asked the question, and she wrote it down, so 16 apparently so. 17 Q And was her desk located in close 18 proximity to the office where the meeting was 19 held? 20 A All of our desks were. Bernie's 21 office was directly adjacent to Vince 22 Foster's and then Bernie's secretary, Betsy 39 1 Pond, and Deb Gorham, Vince's assistant, were 2 opposite one another. My desk was behind 3 them, and we had a staff assistant for 4 correspondence whose desk was in the rear of 5 the office. 6 Q And this meeting took place in 7 Vince Foster's office? 8 A It did. It was one of many. 9 Q Most meetings on this issue took 10 place in Vince Foster's office? 11 A Well, let me just say that the 12 meetings of which I was aware having to do 13 with the Travel Office took place in Vince 14 Foster's office and Vince Foster seldom left 15 to go to meetings outside our office if they 16 were held in the Old EOB and involved other 17 members of the counsel staff. 18 MS. SHAPIRO: We object to the 19 scope of the inquiry going into the Travel 20 Office for the record per the judge's order. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Was there anything else that 40 1 Ms. Gorham told you about the meeting? 2 A Again, Travel Office -- can I -- 3 Q Is that all she wrote down? 4 A No. 5 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Anything other 6 than Travel Office? 7 THE WITNESS: Well, yeah, we had 8 conversations but it's about the Travel 9 Office. 10 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Then I would 11 caution the witness not to respond to that 12 part of the inquiry because I believe it's 13 beyond the scope of the judge's order. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Let me do a voir dire to see if we 16 can focus it a bit more narrowly here. It's 17 quite clear that the issue of files is 18 involved. Did Ms. Gorham mention anything to 19 you about files that were being taken into 20 that office? 21 A She didn't use the word "files." 22 Q What word did she use? 41 1 A Later, after a subsequent meeting, 2 she said -- she referenced a file I had seen 3 on Vince Foster's desk the day of the meeting 4 I just spoke of. 5 Q You had mentioned to her that you 6 had seen a file on Vince Foster's desk? 7 A That's right. 8 Q Did you see that file the same day 9 of the meeting? 10 A I did. 11 Q How did it occur that you got to 12 see the file that was on Vince Foster's desk 13 the day of the meeting you've just described? 14 A Deb Gorham was showing me two 15 photos in Vince Foster's office. One was of 16 -- if I recall correctly, Mr. Foster and his 17 wife on a boat, and the other -- I believe it 18 was at that time that she showed me the photo 19 of the President and Vince Foster in 20 Ms. Mary's kindergarten class in Little Rock 21 or Hope, Arkansas, somewhere. 22 Q Who's Ms. Mary? 42 1 A I'm assuming it was his teacher. 2 I'm not sure. That was how she described it 3 to me. And it was at that time the meeting 4 had just ended, what appeared to be what 5 Mr. Kennedy had brought in and not left with 6 was still on Mr. Foster's desk, and I can 7 only tell you what my observations were, and 8 they looked to be the same -- the same that 9 Mr. Kennedy had had in his hand, and I did 10 see one name, and I only saw a last name. I 11 didn't see a first name. 12 Q What name did you see? 13 A Dale. 14 Q D-a-l-e? 15 A That's correct. 16 Q Did you take that file to relate to 17 Billy Dale? 18 A I did. 19 Q And what did the file look like? 20 A It did not look like a White House 21 personnel file of which I am familiar and 22 which has a commonality to all other 43 1 personnel files that The White House 2 maintains in its White House Office of 3 Personnel as opposed to Presidential 4 personnel. 5 Q What was the color of the file? 6 A I don't recall. I can tell you the 7 only recollection I have at this point in 8 time about color at all was that Mr. Kennedy 9 was carrying a red well -- is that what 10 they're called? -- in one arm and loose on 11 the other and the red well wasn't closed and 12 there were files in there, and the files that 13 were in the red well, the folders had the 14 same color as the ones he was carrying, and 15 that's all I remember. 16 Q Have you ever seen information that 17 came from the FBI to The White House? 18 A You mean an open file? Yes, but I 19 didn't know at the time that's what I was 20 seeing. I didn't know the day that I'm 21 telling you I saw the Dale file and I guess 22 one could argue that I still don't know what 44 1 it was. I can tell you what it wasn't. 2 Q What wasn't it? 3 A It was not the 201 or whatever the 4 nomenclature is for a personnel file at The 5 White House, and my best sense is that it was 6 not the files that Craig Livingstone 7 legitimately maintained in his office for 8 security clearance purposes. That was 9 completely different. 10 Q For internal White House security 11 purposes? 12 A Yeah. The security background 13 questionnaire forms that are extensive, and 14 those had a different look to them than this. 15 Q Which are filled out by The White 16 House? 17 A Well, yes, exactly. They're filled 18 out by The White House and the contents by 19 White House staff and others. 20 Q Now, did you subsequently see after 21 that event that day, when you noticed a file 22 concerning Mr. Dale on Mr. Foster's desk, 45 1 files that had come over from the FBI to The 2 White House? 3 A I don't know what I saw. I can 4 tell you what -- 5 Q I'm sorry. I don't mean at that 6 time, but did you later see, later -- 7 A Those same files? 8 Q Files that came over from the FBI 9 as part of FBI -- 10 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'm sorry to 11 interrupt you. If I may try to help clarify 12 this matter, I'm not sure Mrs. Tripp can 13 identify the origin of these files and maybe 14 that's what causing some confusion; is that 15 correct? 16 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't want to 18 presume that until I have the opportunity to 19 ask the questions, Mr. Zaccagnini. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q What I'm trying to ask you is that 22 those files, the way they appeared when you 46 1 saw that Billy Dale file on Foster's desk, 2 did it look similar to files that you saw 3 later on, when you worked in The White House 4 Counsel's Office? 5 A Oh, I'm sorry. I understand your 6 question now. Actually, let me just correct 7 one thing. I don't know that it was Billy 8 Dale's file. I don't know that with any 9 degree of certainty. I can tell you that was 10 my assumption and I'm fairly confident it was 11 an accurate assumption based on the timing 12 and subsequent events; however, yes, I did 13 see other similar files in great number in 14 other locations within The White House, yes. 15 Q And did you subsequently learn that 16 those other similar files were files obtained 17 from the Federal Bureau of Investigation? 18 A I was told so, yes. 19 Q So the appearance of the Dale file 20 that you saw on Foster's desk looked like 21 files you later saw in The White House 22 Counsel's Office from the FBI? 47 1 A Except that I had no firsthand 2 knowledge they were from the FBI. I was told 3 they were FBI files by an individual in the 4 Counsel's Office, and those were files that I 5 had seen in Bill Kennedy's office. 6 Q These files you saw later that 7 looked like the Dale file you saw on Foster's 8 desk? 9 A Exactly, and subsequently in Vince 10 Foster's safe. 11 Q Who told you that the files you saw 12 later in Bill Kennedy's office were FBI 13 files? 14 A Betsy Pond, who had since been 15 reassigned to Bill Kennedy as Deb Gorham had 16 prior to her departure from The White House. 17 Q Now, when you had these series of 18 discussions with Mr. Snow, did he offer an 19 opinion as to what you saw on Vince Foster's 20 desk? 21 A I didn't tell him what I saw on 22 Vince Foster's desk. I told him about my 48 1 concerns. I never identified files for Tony. 2 Q And specifically what concerns did 3 you tell him about? 4 A I was concerned about guilt 5 feelings I had, and these were significant to 6 me, that I had prior knowledge -- that I had 7 prior knowledge about the impending firing of 8 the Travel Office and didn't warn the people 9 over there, so I discussed that with Tony at 10 great length. 11 Q Did there come a point in time when 12 you discussed with Tony an impression that 13 these files that you had seen, this file that 14 you had seen in Foster's office labeled 15 "Dale," was an FBI file? 16 A Again, not with any -- I mean only 17 that I had seen files which led me to believe 18 that there had been an effort to, at the 19 highest levels, in my opinion, to remove 20 Billy Dale and his staff members. I didn't 21 tell him I had seen Billy Dale's file and I 22 to this day don't know that I did, as I've 49 1 previously said. 2 Q But at some point you had told Tony 3 Snow that you believed you saw FBI files 4 of -- 5 A Oh, yes, absolutely. I still 6 believe I did. 7 Q And that you believe that that file 8 you saw on Foster's desk was an FBI file with 9 Billy Dale? 10 A I do believe that, yes. 11 Q And you told Tony that? 12 A I did -- no, excuse me. That I saw 13 files on Vince Foster's desk and in his safe. 14 I did not identify the name. 15 Q And that you saw what you 16 subsequently believed were FBI files? 17 A Correct. 18 Q And when did you tell Tony that? 19 A Following the Travel Office mass 20 firing but I can't be any more specific than 21 that. 22 Q Did Tony advise you to take any 50 1 action, having seen these files? 2 A Repeatedly. 3 Q What did he advise you to do? 4 A To write a book. 5 Q Did he advise you to go to any 6 authorities? 7 A No. He kept saying -- remember, 8 Filegate, as it has since become known, was 9 not a word that any of us knew. I didn't 10 know at that time that if The White House did 11 in fact have FBI files that that would have 12 been an egregious decision on their part to 13 obtain them. These were things that I just 14 found of concern to me because as a 15 careerist, as someone who was an apolitical 16 staff member, I found it somewhat 17 threatening. 18 My personal framework of reference 19 in the Clinton White House was not a positive 20 one when it came to the fate of White House 21 permanent staff who had been there in excess 22 of 20-plus years and were just unceremonious- 51 1 ly told to leave that day. So I had concerns 2 that didn't necessarily have to do with legal 3 concerns. These were concerns that were of a 4 personal nature as opposed to a righteous 5 legal. 6 Q Now, you say attending that meeting 7 that you described previously with Mr. Foster 8 was a Catherine Cornelius? 9 A Correct. 10 Q Who was Catherine Cornelius in 11 terms of her position? 12 A Catherine Cornelius at that time 13 was working in David Watkins' office in the 14 basement of the White House, and I had come 15 to know both she and Clarissa Cerda rather 16 well during their time in that office, 17 actually, from the first week, I believe, of 18 the first administration, and I'm trying to 19 think -- I actually had heard about -- excuse 20 me one moment. 21 (Witness conferred with counsel) 22 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Could you repeat 52 1 the question again, Mr. Klayman? 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Who did she 3 understand Catherine Cornelius to be? 4 THE WITNESS: Catherine Cornelius 5 told me she was a cousin of the President. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q And what was her title at The White 8 House at the time? 9 A I don't know her title. I think at 10 the time there were no titles. This was 11 early on. She had a desk in David Watkins' 12 outer office and told me that she was working 13 on a joint project with Clarissa Cerda at 14 that at the direction of David Watkins in 15 that office. 16 Q And do you know what the joint 17 project was? 18 A I do. 19 Q What was it? 20 A The proposed firing of the Travel 21 Office and the reorganization of that Travel 22 Office once they had been removed with 53 1 Catherine Cornelius heading that office and 2 an organization from Arkansas World comes to 3 mind to take over the function of the Travel 4 Office. 5 MS. SHAPIRO: I'd just register an 6 objection to further inquiry into the firing 7 of Travel Office personnel, which is not at 8 issue in this deposition. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q And David Watkins, what did you 11 understand his position to be at the time of 12 that meeting? 13 A I didn't know what any of their 14 positions at the time of that meeting were. 15 I only know that it was described to me as a 16 Travel Office meeting, and when I reflected 17 upon the extensive conversations I had had 18 with both Clarissa Cerda and Catherine 19 Cornelius over the preceding couple of 20 months, I was able to pretty much piece 21 together what I anticipated was happening, 22 and it proved to be true. 54 1 Q Did you subsequently come to know 2 what David Watkins' position and job 3 responsibilities were at the time of the 4 meeting? 5 A Oh, excuse me. I thought you were 6 asking a different question. I was aware of 7 what his title and job responsibilities were 8 at the time of the meeting. I was a little 9 fuzzy on why he would have been at a Travel 10 Office meeting until I pieced together in my 11 mind what I had been told earlier. 12 Q What were they at the time of the 13 meeting? 14 MR. ZACCAGNINI: What were 15 Mr. Watkins' job title and responsibilities? 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Right. 17 THE WITNESS: I don't remember 18 right now. Director of administration, 19 maybe, or White House something or other. I 20 don't know. It was sort of an operations 21 manager, as I understood it. He had a far 22 more dignified title. 55 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q And you later became aware that he 3 had involvement in the Travel Office? 4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Just for identification. 7 A Yes. 8 Q How did you become aware of that? 9 MS. SHAPIRO: Same objection. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q You can respond. 12 A Again through several sources, 13 Catherine Cornelius, Clarissa Cerda, Deb 14 Gorham, and personal observations. 15 Q And also attending that meeting you 16 stated was a Hollywood producer? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Harry Thomasson? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Was his wife there, Susan 21 Bloodworth-Thomas? 22 A I did not see her, no, she did not 56 1 come to that meeting. 2 Q You recognized him as a Hollywood 3 producer at the time? 4 A I didn't, actually. I had no idea 5 who he was. He was sporting a residence blue 6 pass and he was introduced to me as a 7 Hollywood producer. That seemed to be part 8 of his name. 9 Q Did he come in with a director's 10 chair or hat or anything like that? 11 A Shades. 12 Q Have you ever seen him without 13 shades? 14 A I don't remember. 15 Q When did you become aware that he 16 was a Hollywood producer? 17 A Actually, that day, the day and the 18 time when we were introduced, and I later 19 learn that he maintained an office in the 20 residence or at least the use of a desk in 21 the residence and also camped out frequently 22 in the -- I'm sorry, I can't recall the name 57 1 of David Watkins' office in the basement of 2 the West Wing, but I do know that they told 3 me that he routinely set up there and used a 4 phone there. 5 Q Who told you that he was a 6 Hollywood producer later in the day or how 7 did you learn specifically? 8 A I don't recall if I was introduced 9 to him as he went into the meeting or coming 10 out. It was during that time frame that I 11 was introduced to him; however, I was told 12 the same day that he was a Hollywood 13 producer, the same day that I met him, which 14 was the day of that meeting. 15 Q You don't remember who told you 16 that? 17 A It might have been Deb Coyle. I 18 don't know. I don't remember. 19 Q Who was Deb Coyle? 20 A Her official title was personal 21 secretary to the President as opposed to 22 executive secretary to the President, which 58 1 at that time was Betty Curry's title, but for 2 all intents and purposes Deb worked primarily 3 for Bruce Lindsey. 4 Q And then, of course, there was 5 Vince Foster in the meeting. You knew who he 6 was at that time? 7 A Yes, I did. 8 Q And when did that meeting take 9 place, approximately? 10 A A very short time prior to the 11 Travel Office being fired. 12 Q When you saw this file labeled 13 "Dale" on Mr. Foster's desk, did you see any 14 other files? 15 A There were other files, and the red 16 well was still next to them with a couple of 17 files still in it. 18 Q About how many files did you see? 19 A Maybe four or five. I don't know. 20 There were, like, two -- there was more than 21 one next to the Dale file. I did not see the 22 name because the Dale file obliterated the 59 1 part where a name could be seen. And then 2 several in the red well still. 3 Q And -- 4 A Vince Foster, let me just state, 5 kept an extremely neat, uncluttered desk, so 6 -- and Deb Gorham was fastidious about 7 maintaining it that way, so there were not 8 many file folders just strewn about, just 9 these. 10 Q It was Vince Foster's practice to 11 only have on his desk that which he was 12 working on? 13 A Always. It very much impressed me 14 because I'm so much the opposite. 15 Q Did you ever discuss that with 16 Mr. Foster? 17 A Often. 18 Q His neatness? 19 A Often. 20 Q Did he tell you that was something 21 he learned at the Rose Law Firm, to be neat 22 and organized? 60 1 A He said that he had always been 2 neat and organized and found it to be the 3 only way that he could function profession- 4 ally. He did not work well in a cluttered 5 environment. 6 Q Mr. Foster was a litigation 7 attorney, was he not? 8 A I believe so but I'm sorry. I'm 9 really not familiar with his law practice 10 during his years at the Rose Law Firm. 11 Q I was just wondering whether he 12 told you that the organization was necessary 13 for a litigation lawyer to function? 14 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 15 Relevancy. 16 MR. ZACCAGNINI: You may answer. 17 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I'm sorry. I 18 really don't recall any -- I don't think we 19 sort of got into an in-depth conversation 20 about the matter, but he marveled at the way 21 I operated and I marveled at the way he 22 operated. 61 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q These other files that you saw, the 3 four or five others, were of similar 4 appearance? 5 A Yes. 6 Q In terms of their folders? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And in terms of the red wells that 9 they were contained in? 10 A I saw one red well. There was a 11 commonality to all of them, and I to this day 12 cannot tell you what color they were. They 13 weren't checkered or polka-dotted as I 14 recall. They were a solid color, as I 15 recall. 16 Q Now, you said you later saw files 17 coming to you from the FBI which looked 18 similar to the files you saw in Foster's 19 office? 20 A Right. 21 Q And when did you see those other 22 files, the later files that looked similar to 62 1 the files in Foster's office the day of this 2 particular meeting? 3 A Well, actually, I saw that very 4 file again. 5 Q Oh, when did you see that other 6 file again? 7 A I can't give you a specific date. 8 It was certainly following the date that I 9 saw it in Vince Foster's office and I saw it 10 subsequently in Vince Foster's safe in Bernie 11 Nussbuam's office with Deborah Gorham. 12 Q How did you come upon that file in 13 Vince Foster's safe in Bernie Nussbuam's 14 office? 15 A As I've stated previously, I don't 16 recall Bernie Nussbuam ever using that safe. 17 I had occasion -- I had the combination, Deb 18 Gorham had the combination, and Betsy Pond 19 had the combination. Bernie had the 20 combination, and it's my opinion that he most 21 likely would have died if it meant life or 22 death to get into the safe depending on his 63 1 ability to get into the safe. He could not 2 have done it. Deborah, however, was quick 3 and got into it immediately. I was always 4 hindered by the fact that it was unlike other 5 safes that I had used in the Department of 6 Army, so I never could get it right, so I 7 used to call Anthony Marceca to come open it 8 for me. 9 Q Good choice. 10 A I thought so at the time; however, 11 this particular day Bernie had received 12 something from the National Security Council, 13 and I'm sorry I don't remember what it was, 14 and it needed to be prior to the end of the 15 day -- I'm going blank. What do you call it? 16 Locked in the safe. 17 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Secured? 18 THE WITNESS: Yes, secured, needed 19 to be secured. And while this was generally 20 not something that seemed to concern people 21 one way or another in the Clinton White 22 House, this particular document Bernie 64 1 preferred that we lock up. So I couldn't 2 open the safe. Deborah Gorham hadn't come 3 back into the office. I called Tony Marceca. 4 He was not able to come over. Deborah came 5 back. 6 We together went in, she opened the 7 safe, I tried to find a place to put Bernie's 8 National Security folder, and there was not a 9 lot of room because all these other files 10 were in there. Knowing that Bernie didn't 11 use it routinely, I was trying to find the 12 logical place to put it, and that's when I 13 saw the Dale file. 14 Q Well, maybe I missed it, but why is 15 it you wanted to get into the safe? 16 A To secure the National Security 17 Council document. 18 Q I see. It wasn't to get this 19 particular file, the Dale file? 20 A It was not to retrieve at all. It 21 was to secure a document, thing. 22 Q Did Anthony Marceca know the 65 1 combination of this safe? 2 A He did. 3 Q How were the combinations provided 4 to people such that they would know them on 5 this safe? 6 MR. ZACCAGNINI: If you know. 7 THE WITNESS: I do know. I don't 8 know from whence the combinations came. I do 9 know that we were given the combination by 10 the folks in Craig Livingstone's office, and 11 we committed it to memory except Betsy Pond, 12 who wrote it down and wrote the words "safe 13 combination" and taped it to the inside 14 drawer of her desk, so so much for secure 15 safes. 16 Q Why is it that Vince Foster's safe 17 was kept in Bernie Nussbuam's office? 18 A Well, I can only speculate. I can 19 be quite certain it's because of space 20 constraints. Vince Foster had a tiny little 21 office with barely enough room to seat -- 22 well, he certainly couldn't seat your quorum 66 1 here today. I mean, tiny, and Bernie 2 Nussbuam had a spacious office with plenty of 3 room and I believe safes that had been there. 4 Q Was Nussbuam's office located 5 adjacent to Vince Foster's office? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Right next to each other? 8 A Exactly. 9 Q Now, when you got into that safe, 10 who was it that actually opened the safe? 11 A Deborah Gorham. 12 Q And who was there when it was 13 opened? 14 A Deborah Gorham and myself. 15 Q And did Deborah Gorham observe 16 everything that you observed? 17 A I believe so. 18 Q And what did you observe? What was 19 in that safe besides this National Security 20 information? 21 A Let me also state that Deborah 22 Gorham maintained that safe. She maintained 67 1 those files for Vince Foster, so she was 2 completely familiar with the files in the 3 safe. So, as I was going through it looking 4 for a place for Bernie's file, she was going 5 through it to sort of section off a portion 6 of the safe, and she was -- seemed to be 7 familiar with the files that were in there. 8 This is mine, this is mine, this is mine. 9 Q When she said "mine," what did you 10 take that to mean? 11 A Files belonging to Vince Foster. 12 Q Because she was Vince Foster's 13 secretary? 14 A Yes. 15 Q At the time you were Bernie 16 Nussbuam's secretary? 17 A No. 18 Q What were you at the time? 19 A Betsy Pond was Bernie's secretary. 20 I was his executive assistant. 21 Q What was the difference between the 22 two job functions? 68 1 A Well, they were completely 2 different. 3 Q At that time? 4 A Yes. Yes. I was hired and 5 interviewed by Vince Foster, Bernie Nussbuam, 6 and Steve Neuwirth and actually asked 7 repeatedly to take a position they were going 8 to create in the Counsel's Office, that they 9 had two secretaries, one to serve as an 10 executive secretary to each of the 11 principals, but the need for someone with 12 overall White House experience who could act 13 as press liaison, senior staff liaison, and 14 actually someone to oversee the outside 15 office, and I accepted that position, also 16 handled a great deal of the correspondence in 17 terms of writing for Bernie, routine 18 correspondence not of a legal nature. 19 Q And Ms. Pond was a traditional 20 secretary, generally? 21 A Yeah, she essentially maintained 22 his correspondence files, was responsible for 69 1 the extensive telephone log and his schedule 2 of daily appointments and I believe his White 3 House checking account. 4 Q At the time of this opening of the 5 safe, you were highly regarded in that office 6 based upon statements made to you, correct, 7 for your work? 8 A Revisionist history seems to 9 reflect otherwise but at the time, yes. 10 Q That's what people were telling 11 you, that you were doing a good job? 12 MS. SHAPIRO: Object to the form. 13 MR. ZACCAGNINI: You can answer the 14 question. 15 THE WITNESS: Well, they promoted 16 me and were extremely complimentary, yes. 17 They continued to give me increasingly 18 sensitive positions and areas of 19 responsibility, so, yes, I believed I was 20 highly regarded there. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q We'll get into that in greater 70 1 depth later, but for right now what I'm 2 trying to get at is why were you present at 3 the opening of the safe dealing with the 4 national security information contained 5 therein? What was it about your job function 6 and responsibility? 7 A Okay, Bernie had received a 8 National Security Council packet which I 9 believe he had reviewed and either had not 10 finished reviewing or wanted to retain. For 11 whatever reason it needed to be secured. It 12 would not have been anybody else in the outer 13 office's job to secure that. It would have 14 been my responsibility to see to it that it 15 was and I did so. 16 MR. ZACCAGNINI: May I interrupt 17 just one second to speak to my client? 18 (Witness conferred with counsel) 19 THE WITNESS: And I was asked to do 20 so. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Who asked you to do so? 71 1 A Mr. Nussbuam. 2 Q Now, when you both opened that 3 safe, and forgive me if I'm going back -- 4 A Deborah Gorham opened the safe. 5 Q Excuse me. Deborah Gorham opened 6 the safe but you were present? 7 A Right, I was present. 8 Q And you both went through the 9 contents of that safe correct? 10 A Mm-hmm, in a very cursory way. It 11 was more or less to find space. It was a 12 little safe. 13 Q Tell me everything that you 14 observed. 15 A Files. The only one that I 16 remember with any degree of specificity again 17 is the one which said "Dale" which was the 18 same file I had seen on Mr. Foster's desk 19 days prior. 20 Q Were those other four or five files 21 that looked like the Dale file you saw on 22 Foster's desk also in this safe? 72 1 A They appeared to have that 2 commonality that the others had but I can't 3 say because I didn't see names. I didn't 4 look for names. 5 Q But it struck you it was the same 6 grouping of files you had seen the day of 7 that meeting in Foster's office? 8 A It struck me so, yes. 9 Q Did you see anything else in that 10 safe? 11 A Yeah, I did see other things in 12 that safe. I just can't tell you whether it 13 was that day or not. I'm sorry. My degree 14 of recollection in terms of specifics is 15 somewhat fuzzy. I did have access to that 16 safe on many other occasions and at those 17 times also saw files. 18 Q On other occasions what files did 19 you see? 20 A Bill Kennedy's file was housed in 21 that safe for an extended period of time. 22 Q And when was that that you first 73 1 noticed Bill Kennedy's file? 2 A Later, but, I'm sorry, I can't date 3 the time frame. 4 Q Roughly speaking. Months? Years? 5 A Well, that year. I'm sorry. I 6 just don't know. I don't remember. There 7 was a lot going on in the Counsel's Office 8 during that time frame. 9 Q And what year was that, again? 10 A 1993. 11 Q And did Bill Kennedy's file look of 12 a similar composition to the Dale file you 13 saw? 14 A It did not. 15 Q It was a different type of file? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Did you identify it as a particular 18 type of file when you saw it or thereafter? 19 A It looked to be a compilation of 20 several different types of files is the 21 best -- 22 Q And what compilation did it strike 74 1 you? 2 A It looked like a file that -- well, 3 actually it was relatively thick as compared 4 to the others, very thick, and it looked like 5 a combination security White House personnel 6 and other, financial even. It just looked 7 like a very extensive personal file on Bill 8 Kennedy. 9 Q What other kinds of files did you 10 see in that particular safe in Bernie 11 Nussbuam's office, Mr. Foster's safe? 12 MS. SHAPIRO: I'm just going to 13 caution the witness. 14 MR. ZACCAGNINI: If I can consult 15 with the witness. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Is Ms. Shapiro 17 representing Ms. Tripp? 18 MR. ZACCAGNINI: No, not at all. I 19 want to speak to Ms. Tripp about not 20 divulging any information that might be vital 21 to National Security with respect to the 22 contents of that safe. I just want to get 75 1 from her if that's going to be her intended 2 answer. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Is Ms. Shapiro 4 consulting with you? 5 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Not at all. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Because we would 7 object to that. 8 MS. SHAPIRO: You would object to 9 me consulting with counsel for the witness? 10 MR. KLAYMAN: With the witness. 11 MS. SHAPIRO: I don't intend to 12 consult with the witness. 13 (Witness conferred with counsel) 14 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. Could you 15 just repeat the last portion? 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q What other documents did you see in 18 that safe, documents or things? 19 A In I'm not mistaken, there was a 20 file having to do with Wachtell, Lipton in 21 New York. 22 MS. SHAPIRO: We're going to have 76 1 to take a break because if there's 2 information that's potentially privileged 3 that she cannot divulge, then we would 4 instruct her not to divulge that, but in 5 order to resolve it I would like to consult 6 with counsel for the witness to determine 7 whether there is such information that we 8 need to assert as privilege. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll work backwards 10 before you consult. 11 MR. ZACCAGNINI: For the record -- 12 THE WITNESS: I need a break, 13 though. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm going to ask the 15 questions in a different way to exclude any 16 information that may be outside what I'm 17 looking for here which may lead to relevant 18 evidence. 19 MR. ZACCAGNINI: That's fine. 20 Let's take a break. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: And then we can get 22 into those other things later once I get 77 1 that. 2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off video 3 record at 11:33. 4 (Recess) 5 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on 6 video record at 11:46. 7 MS. SHAPIRO: I'd like to just say 8 two things before we proceed. I want to 9 repeat what I told Mr. Zaccagnini during the 10 break, which is that, if there are files or 11 other things in the safe that pertain to 12 attorney-client matters or other privileged 13 matters, that we would instruct the witness 14 not to divulge those. She's free to testify 15 with respect to any files in the safe that 16 looked to her or looked like the sort of 17 files that she's testified about. 18 The second thing is, as 19 Mr. Zaccagnini said at the outset of the 20 deposition, he's available on Friday and is 21 agreeable to producing Ms. Tripp on Friday 22 for cross-examination. We would like to be 78 1 able to inform the court that because the 2 witness has voluntarily agreed to appear we 3 don't need to appear before the court 4 tomorrow morning for a hearing, so we'd like 5 to get the agreement to that so we can so 6 advise the court unless you don't plan on 7 going the full six hours. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Let's see what 9 happens. Obviously, we want to have 10 something to say at that hearing, too. 11 MS. SHAPIRO: Just so that we know 12 for our purposes -- 13 MR. KLAYMAN: There may be other 14 reasons for the hearing. For instance, I 15 don't want to get into a long discussion 16 here, but Ms. Tripp does have her own counsel 17 and your objections may or may not be 18 objections which her counsel wishes to 19 assert. 20 MS. SHAPIRO: That's right. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: There is obviously a 22 situation here with regard to the FBI file 79 1 matter that may give rise to certain issues 2 that deal with whether your privileges are 3 valid because the privilege can't shield any 4 criminal conduct. These are the kinds of 5 things we may need to discuss with the court, 6 so I'm just going to reserve on whether there 7 will be no hearing. 8 MS. SHAPIRO: It's my understanding 9 that Mr. Zaccagnini's not available tomorrow. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: We don't need to 11 clutter the record right now. Let's just 12 take it under advisement. 13 MS. SHAPIRO: I'd like to just note 14 that we'd like to advise the court while it's 15 there today before the end of the day whether 16 we need to be there tomorrow. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Certainly. I would 18 appreciate you're not instructing Ms. Tripp 19 on what she can and can't do. 20 MS. SHAPIRO: She's free to ignore 21 the instruction, but we are entitled to 22 assert privileges that are our privileges to 80 1 assert. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not going to 3 quibble with you, Ms. Shapiro. You'll do so 4 at the appropriate time and place. We've had 5 a number of instances here where counsel have 6 jumped in and made certain statements that 7 have affected testimonies. 8 MS. SHAPIRO: I haven't done 9 anything other than say that, as I mentioned 10 to Mr. Zaccagnini, we will protect attorney- 11 client privilege and other legitimate 12 privileges. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: I appreciate the use 14 of the word "legitimate." 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Ms. Tripp, you previously testified 17 that you observed certain things in the safe. 18 Now, what other kinds of files did you see in 19 the safe other than the national security 20 information and other than this Dale file and 21 related files that you previously testified 22 to? 81 1 MR. ZACCAGNINI: And at this point, 2 Mr. Klayman, if I can, I would caution 3 Ms. Tripp not to divulge any information 4 related to matters outside the scope of this 5 deposition, which I believe to be the 6 Filegate matter. 7 THE WITNESS: In that regard and 8 with those constraints, I will say that there 9 were several files which appeared to be very 10 similar if not duplicative of the Dale file, 11 more than what I had seen in Mr. Foster's 12 office the day I saw the Dale file. 13 Q About how many of those files did 14 you see? 15 A Several more. 16 Q Ten, twenty? 17 A I'm sorry. I can't quantify. 18 Maybe -- it was a good four or five inches, 19 perhaps, of file space. 20 Q And how thick was the Dale file, 21 roughly speaking? 22 A Not nearly as thick as 82 1 Mr. Kennedy's file at all, which was a 2 different type of file. 3 Q If you had to put a size to it in 4 inches, quarter of an inch, eighth of an 5 inch? 6 A I'm very, very poor at measure- 7 ments. 8 Q Just roughly speaking. 9 A Relatively thin. 10 Q So when you say you saw four to six 11 inches worth of additional files that looked 12 similar to the Dale file, that would maybe 13 amount to somewhere between ten and twenty 14 additional files? 15 A It's hard for me to -- 16 Q Just roughly. 17 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'm not going to 18 let you speculate. If you have a number in 19 mind, that's fine. 20 THE WITNESS: I can't tell you. 21 Several. I remember an impression of several 22 more that were more than what I had seen on 83 1 Mr. Foster's desk, but I'm sorry I just -- I 2 can't tell you a number. I just didn't think 3 to count. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Now, with regard to those files, 6 did there come a point in time when you asked 7 anybody about what this Dale file was about? 8 A Well, months later, when Betsy Pond 9 had been -- I believe at that point Deb 10 Gorham had left The White House staff. She 11 had ended her tenure at The White House as an 12 assistant to Bill Kennedy. She left and 13 Betsy took on that position when she was 14 removed from the West Wing and again placed 15 in the same desk and position that Deb Gorham 16 had held for a short period, and it was on 17 one of my trips to Bill Kennedy's office that 18 Betsy Pond identified those files that I had 19 seen in Bill Kennedy's office as FBI files. 20 Q And how did Deb Gorham identify the 21 files as FBI files? 22 A I'm sorry. If I said Deb Gorham, I 84 1 didn't mean that. Betsy Pond. 2 Q Betsy Pond. How did she identify 3 them as FBI files? 4 A She said, "Those are FBI files." I 5 asked the question. 6 Q Why did you ask the question? 7 A Because there were so many and they 8 never moved for a long time, stacks and 9 stacks of files. 10 Q So when you said Deb Gorham earlier 11 you meant Betsy Pond? 12 A Well, what I meant to say -- if I 13 was unclear, let me restate. Deb Gorham 14 who's Vince Foster's assistant, at one point 15 in time was removed from the West Wing 16 Counsel's Office to a desk and a position 17 outside Bill Kennedy's office. She 18 subsequently left White House employ and 19 Betsy Pond was removed from West Wing counsel 20 and put in that same desk with the same 21 duties, and it was Betsy Pond who mentioned 22 the word "FBI files," and that was the first 85 1 time I had heard the files referred to in any 2 way with the FBI. 3 Q When she said "FBI files," did her 4 voice have concern in it? Did you take it 5 that way? 6 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 7 MR. ZACCAGNINI: You can answer. 8 THE WITNESS: Not -- I didn't -- 9 not concern, just sort of hush-hush, not 10 overly concerned one way or another and there 11 was no reason for me at that point in time to 12 read much into it, frankly. I was confused, 13 but again it could very well have been 14 legitimate in my opinion at that time. I 15 didn't know what the relative ease of files 16 back and forth between agencies was at that 17 time. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Now, at the time that you worked in 20 The White House, did the issue of these files 21 ever arise again? Was there ever discussion 22 of these particular files that Betsy Pond had 86 1 identified as FBI files? 2 A Once with Bill Kennedy and Bill 3 Kennedy and I -- 4 Q Before we get into Bill Kennedy, 5 let me ask you did you ever have a discussion 6 where you discussed these files with Betsy 7 Pond after that initial identification of the 8 files as FBI files? 9 A Oh, only in regard to her 10 participation in inputting data from the 11 files into a computer, but it again was not a 12 covert conversation or a -- it was more or 13 less -- it's something we don't -- by her 14 demeanor and her voice and the way she spoke, 15 it was quite apparent to me that she -- this 16 was confidential, but it didn't seem illegal 17 at the time or anything. 18 I mean, I didn't get that sense. 19 And she never said she was inputting data 20 from the FBI files into her computer. What 21 she was doing was continually inputting data 22 into the computer, and on a subsequent 87 1 conversation said "the files" when I asked 2 her what she was doing. 3 Q When did you have that subsequent 4 conversation, roughly speaking? 5 A I can't place a date. It was -- 6 she moved -- I can tell you this. Betsy Pond 7 moved from The White House Counsel's Office 8 in the West Wing sometime in December of '93 9 or early January of '94, and so it had to 10 have followed that time period, and it was 11 prior to Bernie's resignation, which I 12 believe was in March of '94 which took effect 13 30 days later in April of '94, so it was 14 prior to that time. So I can date it between 15 end of December, early January -- assume 16 early January '94 to March, in that time 17 frame. I can't be more specific. 18 Q And how did the issue arise? What 19 occurred to cause you to ask the question 20 what are you inputting into your computer? 21 A It wasn't even -- I was back and 22 forth to Bill Kennedy's office frequently. 88 1 Bill Kennedy was involved in or had been 2 involved in the vetting process -- 3 Q Of appointments and holdovers? 4 A Yeah. Actually, my familiarity was 5 new appointees, but it could very well have 6 been holdovers. I don't know. And so in 7 that regard often there would be something 8 that had a note from Bernie or something back 9 and forth that I would hand-carry over there 10 on other business and then stop in the 11 counsel's office. 12 Betsy and I would chat. Our 13 relationship was somewhat strained because of 14 the circumstances of her removal from the 15 West Wing, so it was still cordial and 16 actually friendly but not very close. But 17 she did not seem to have a problem with 18 saying what she was doing. So, even though 19 she said it in a hushed voice, I didn't get 20 the sense that this was something of great 21 moment at all. 22 Q Who raised the issue, you or 89 1 Ms. Pond, about what she was doing at the 2 time? 3 A Oh, I think she did, actually, in 4 the beginning because she asked if I wanted 5 to go have a cigarette break. When she saw 6 me she said, "I'm so sick to death of -- 7 that's all I do all day," blah blah, and she 8 made this kind of motion with her hands which 9 would be her forefingers up and down pecking 10 on the -- and I said, "Does he do a lot of 11 mail"? And she said, "No, no, it's not. 12 It's the files." And she pointed back, which 13 to me indicated a direct sort of reference to 14 our previous discussion. 15 Q When she said "the files," she said 16 FBI files? 17 A She had said "FBI files" prior to 18 that. No, this day she said "the files." 19 Q Did you subsequently confirm from 20 her that she was talking about FBI files that 21 she was putting into the computer? 22 A I don't recall asking her 90 1 specifically. My sense was that I had but I 2 don't know that for this purpose I can be any 3 more accurate than that. 4 Q You took it to mean FBI files? 5 A I did. 6 Q And why did you take it to mean FBI 7 files? 8 A Because of our prior conversation 9 and the way she motioned to the location of 10 those files. 11 Q How did she motion, again? 12 A Sort of "the files," you know, as 13 those I knew, and I did. 14 Q And the use of the term "the files" 15 between you and Ms. Pond took on a meaning 16 "the FBI files" in the course of time? 17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Form. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q You can respond. 20 A Well, I thought so. 21 Q That was the way that you 22 communicated about files that were FBI files, 91 1 generally referred to them as "the files"? 2 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 3 THE WITNESS: On the few occasions 4 that we referenced them at all, yes. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Such as the occasion when you 7 discussed Billy Dale and related files, you 8 called them the files? 9 A I don't recall ever discussing 10 Billy Dale. 11 Q Excuse me, the Dale file. 12 A I don't think I ever discussed with 13 Betsy Pond the Billy Dale file. 14 Q What instance did you discuss files 15 that were FBI files where you referred to 16 them as "the files"? 17 A Well, the conversation I just 18 relayed would be one such time. 19 Q Where she identified them as being 20 FBI files and then called them "the files" in 21 the same conversation? 22 A No, no, on a completely separate 92 1 day that preceded the day I'm speaking of 2 right now, the input day as opposed to the 3 day that she mentioned what those files were. 4 Those are completely separate days. 5 Q Right. 6 A So the day when we addressed the 7 issue of the stacks of files in Mr. Kennedy's 8 office she referred to them as FBI files. On 9 this subsequent day, where she was inputting 10 in her machine and bemoaned the fact that she 11 was flustered at having to do this, meaning 12 it's a lot of work and tedious, she referred 13 to them as "the files," which, as I stated, 14 in my opinion referenced our previous 15 conversation. 16 Q And my subsequent question is did 17 it take on a way of referring to the FBI 18 files by calling them "the files"? 19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection form. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Was that a common phraseology used 22 in the office with her? 93 1 A Mr. Klayman, I really didn't pay 2 all that much attention to how we referred to 3 them because at the time I really didn't know 4 or note the significance of what we were 5 talking about. So to give you any more level 6 of detail than what I have I think would be 7 reaching a bit. I'm sorry. 8 Q When she said she was inputting the 9 files on this day that you had the 10 discussion, did she have a stack of them on 11 her desk? 12 A Yes. 13 Q About how big was the stack? 14 A Again, I can't give you a 15 measurement. There was a good -- I would say 16 a good number of files there. 17 Q About a foot worth? 18 A Let me just state that Betsy Pond 19 operated in a cluttered environment much as I 20 did, so there were many, many things out on 21 her desk and area, but I did notice this, 22 again, commonality to the stack that she was 94 1 inputting which -- 2 Q Commonality with what? 3 A With the ones that I had seen in 4 the stacks in Mr. Kennedy's office, the ones 5 I had seen on Mr. Foster's desk, the ones I 6 had seen in Mr. Foster's safe in Bernie 7 Nussbuam's office and -- 8 Q Such as the Dale file? 9 A Such as the Dale file -- and ones I 10 had seen in Mr. Livingstone's office. 11 Q And it was that commonality which 12 caused you to equate FBI with "those files"? 13 A Yes, and by that time, as you can 14 well imagine, I was far more sensitized to 15 the danger of those files, although not 16 knowing how dangerous, because of what 17 subsequently happened with Mr. Dale. 18 Q Why specifically were you more 19 sensitized to the danger of those files at 20 that time? 21 A Because it was shortly thereafter 22 that they were unceremoniously removed from 95 1 The White House after many years of service, 2 and they were all known to be professional 3 decent, honorable people, and they were not 4 treated that way. 5 Q But what, if anything, caused you 6 to relate the dismissal of the Travel Office 7 with the files you had seen? 8 A Well, as I stated earlier, the 9 files went in with Mr. Kennedy and those 10 individuals I mentioned earlier for the 11 purpose of, as Deb Gorham relayed to me, a 12 Travel Office meeting. So from my 13 perspective a meeting took place with people 14 who seemed to have an agenda one way or 15 another with the members of the Travel 16 Office, the Dale file was there, it remained 17 in the Counsel's Office, and then subsequent 18 events occurred that made me feel that this 19 was perhaps not a legitimately good thing to 20 have seen. 21 Q And that's what caused you to put, 22 in effect, two and two together? 96 1 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to the 2 form. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q You can respond. 5 MR. ZACCAGNINI: If you understand 6 the question. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q You were able to put all the 9 events -- 10 A It allowed me to draw my own 11 conclusions. 12 Q That the FBI files were somehow 13 related to the Travel Office firings? 14 A That was my feeling. 15 Q Now, I take it that you saw these 16 FBI files on Ms. Pond's desk on more than one 17 day? 18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to the 19 form. 20 THE WITNESS: I have no specific 21 recollection of how many times I saw Betsy 22 inputting data from these folders. I have a 97 1 specific recollection of one particular time 2 that stood out in my mind. I can't be any 3 more specific than that. 4 Q Not specific recollection but just 5 recollection. You saw on multiple occasions 6 these files being inputted by Betsy Pond in 7 her computer? 8 A I just don't know that I can say 9 with any degree of accuracy that those other 10 times that I saw her at her computer she was 11 working on that same type of work. I don't 12 know. 13 Q Well, let me just ask you from a 14 different perspective that you believed that 15 she was working on inputting FBI files 16 continuously after she first told you what 17 she was doing? 18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to the form 19 of the question. 20 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection. Leading. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q You can respond. 98 1 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Did you believe 2 Mrs. Pond was working on FBI files other than 3 the one occasion that you specifically recall 4 that she was doing that? 5 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the 6 order of questioning. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q You can respond. 9 A Based on an explanation that Betsy 10 had provided to me on more than one occasion, 11 not identifying the files as FBI but just in 12 conversation on a cigarette break, for 13 instance, she would on more than one occasion 14 bemoan the fact that she was still entering 15 data into the computer, and she felt that was 16 beneath her. She had had a very long career 17 as an executive secretary in prestigious law 18 firms. She felt that she had been reduced to 19 nothing more than a data entry clerk. So 20 that seemed to be bothersome to Betsy, and I 21 certainly understood that. 22 Q Now, you talked about one 99 1 particular instance. Tell us about that, 2 that sticks out in your mind after that first 3 discussion that you had. 4 MR. ZACCAGNINI: She already has, 5 Mr. Klayman. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Oh, that was the 7 instance? 8 MR. ZACCAGNINI: That's correct. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Now, what kind of computer systems 11 or system did Betsy Pond have at her desk at 12 the time you became aware she was entering 13 information from files into it? 14 A I don't know what computer she was 15 using at that time. I know that when Deb 16 Gorham left her computer from our office in 17 the West Wing, the secure office in a West 18 Wing, alarmed office, was removed against my 19 recommendation to the Old EOB and accompanied 20 Deb when she went to that same location. It 21 could very well be that that was the same 22 computer. I don't know. I do know that a 100 1 computer that used to be in the counsel's 2 office was moved to that location when Deb 3 moved, and I believe the same computer was 4 used by Betsy when she took that position. 5 Q Do you remember what kind of 6 computer it was? 7 A No. 8 Q In terms of hardware? 9 A It was a PC, not a Mac, I think. 10 Q A desktop? 11 A Yes, it was a desktop -- well, I 12 mean, by that you mean a normal-size monitor 13 and -- yeah, it appeared to be. 14 Q Did you ever discuss with Betsy 15 what software she was inputting these files 16 into? 17 A I didn't. 18 Q Did you ever come to know a 19 computer referred to as WHODB? 20 A No. Actually, I've only read press 21 accounts of that. That was not a database 22 that I was familiar with at all. I had heard 101 1 other names for other databases but not that 2 one. 3 Q Did you become aware when you 4 worked in the White House of certain 5 databases that only certain people had access 6 to? 7 A Yes. 8 Q What did you become aware of? 9 MR. ZACCAGNINI: At this point, 10 Mr. Klayman, I'm going to object because I'm 11 not sure this is within the scope. Can you 12 proffer to me the relevance? 13 MR. KLAYMAN: We're just trying to 14 find out which database this was inputted 15 into. 16 MR. ZACCAGNINI: The information 17 that Mrs. pond was inputting. If you know. 18 THE WITNESS: I don't know what 19 database she was inputting into. I never 20 asked. 21 Q Did you become aware, however, of 22 databases that certain people had limited 102 1 access to in The White House counsel's 2 office? 3 A And I have told you yes. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Zaccagnini, this 5 is an area that the court has allowed 6 discovery into. 7 MS. SHAPIRO: I object to that 8 characterization. 9 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Is it subject to 10 litigation at this point in time? 11 MS. SHAPIRO: Yes. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: No. 13 MS. WEISMANN: Well, this order is 14 what governs this deposition. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Can we have one 16 counsel speak for the government? 17 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Mr. Klayman, if 18 I'm understanding this correctly, it's your 19 belief that Mrs. Pond may have been inputting 20 data into a certain database; is that 21 correct? 22 MR. KLAYMAN: I want to find out 103 1 what database and what databases does 2 Ms. Tripp know of that exist in that office. 3 Now, I'm not asking for the underlying name 4 of that database, which may or may not be 5 confidential. I'm just asking which 6 databases exist that she knew of. 7 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Can I ask her a 8 couple questions? I'll ask them on the 9 record so you'll understand where I'm going 10 because I'm not sure I want her to answer 11 that question because it may be privileged 12 material. 13 Did your knowledge of these 14 databases that you acknowledge existed come 15 from your employment within the counsel's 16 office, as a result of your employment within 17 the counsel's office? 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me object to this 19 right now. If you want to consult with her, 20 that's fine. 21 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'm going to step 22 outside with her for a second. 104 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Just make a proffer 2 when you get back. 3 MR. ZACCAGNINI: We'll go off the 4 record. 5 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off 6 video record at 12:12. 7 (Recess) 8 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on 9 video record at 12:20. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q The question that was pending, 12 Ms. Tripp, was what types of databases during 13 the time that you worked in The White House 14 Counsel's Office were you aware of? 15 MR. ZACCAGNINI: At that point, 16 Mr. Klayman, I'm going to interpose an 17 objection, as it relates to the fact that I 18 don't believe that Linda Tripp's 19 acknowledgment or knowledge of databases is 20 within the scope of this deposition. 21 However, I will proffer that 22 Ms. Tripp has informed me that she was aware 105 1 of a database called People Base, and I don't 2 see how it has any relevance to this inquiry 3 at this point in time. 4 You have advised me that there is 5 an order that you believe permits the scope 6 of discovery, and I would ask that I be 7 allowed to examine that. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Right. We'll see if 9 we can give that to you before lunch. Maybe 10 that will even influence when we take lunch. 11 But the court has clearly allowed us to take 12 discovery on White House database systems, 13 and security systems and a whole variety of 14 systems that you may have read about that in 15 The Washington Times and elsewhere. This is 16 something that we've gotten into and it's 17 relevant because we need to know what 18 database this information was being put on at 19 The White House. 20 MS. SHAPIRO: Let me say that 21 despite your proffer of relevancy this 22 deposition is specifically controlled by a 106 1 protective order which identifies the 2 subjects which are relevant to the 3 deposition. This subject is not included in 4 that, so we would object to getting into 5 inquiry, since the witness has already 6 testified that she didn't know the database 7 that was at issue. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Don't feed her 9 testimony. We've been through this many 10 times, Ms. Shapiro. I don't want to get into 11 kids' games with you over this. You know 12 that this is relevant to this case, and you 13 know that the court order did not outline 14 every area which is subsumed within its 15 general parameters. If you want to go over 16 to the court and argue that right now, I'd be 17 happy to, and I'll move for sanctions. Do 18 you want to do that? 19 MS. SHAPIRO: I'm looking at the 20 face of the order, and I'm stating my 21 objection. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Let's move on, then, 107 1 and certify this area. 2 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'm going to 3 instruct her not to answer that question, 4 Mr. Klayman, with respect to what types of 5 databases she has knowledge at this point in 6 time. I'd ask that you move on to your next 7 area of inquiry. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Will you revisit this 9 after lunch? I'll give you the order. 10 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Sure. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: If not, I'm going to 12 let the court know that we may have an 13 impasse we need to resolve. 14 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'd like to take a 15 look at the order, and then I'll advise you 16 as to whether or not I intend to revisit our 17 position on this. If not, then I will be 18 glad to go to the court and have the judge 19 issue the order. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: I just want to make 21 it clear that the U.S. Department of Justice 22 may or may not be stating things accurately. 108 1 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I understand. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: In my view, they 3 don't represent the interests of Ms. Tripp. 4 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'll make my own 5 decisions independently. 6 MS. SHAPIRO: I think I could say 7 the same for you, Mr. Klayman. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: At least, not that 9 aspect of the Department of Justice. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Were there databases, without 12 identifying a particular database, that would 13 be able to take information from files that 14 you knew of in The White House counsel's 15 office? 16 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'll object on the 17 same line, Mr. Klayman. I think we're still 18 getting perilously overboard in terms of the 19 scope of this deposition. I would ask that 20 you defer asking any questions relating to 21 database, at least until I get a chance to 22 look at that order, or at least until we get 109 1 a chance to visit the court. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Did Ms. Pond ever tell you what 4 information from the files she was inputting 5 into the computers? 6 A I don't recall substantively what 7 she told me about that. She made an 8 explanation at that time, and I'm sorry; I 9 don't recall specifically. 10 Q Do you recall generally? 11 A I don't. I don't remember. It was 12 in columns. There were columns on the 13 particular screen at that time, and she 14 indicated that's what she was doing at the 15 time, inputting the data from the files, so 16 I'm assuming that the columns had some 17 significance, and again, that is an 18 assumption. Be that as it may, it was an 19 assumption I made at that time. I didn't get 20 the sense that it was an abbreviated entry of 21 data, simply by the screen that I saw that 22 day and her exasperation with the 110 1 time-consuming nature of her task. 2 Q Did she tell you what types of data 3 she was inputting? Did she ever tell you 4 that? 5 A If she did, I don't recall it. I'm 6 sorry. 7 Q Do you know if there was anyone 8 else who was assisting her on that data entry 9 on to computer? 10 A I don't believe so, at least not to 11 my knowledge. 12 Q Did you have an understanding as to 13 why there was no one else assisting her? 14 A It was my understanding that she 15 had taken on the role that Deb Gorham had 16 performed prior to her departing The White 17 House, and actually, I just now remembered 18 that Deb Gorham had also said she was 19 inputting data, which is why I suppose that I 20 made leap in assumption. In any event, Betsy 21 Pond seemed to continue that role. 22 Q Did she say she was inputting data 111 1 from files, Deb Gorham? 2 A She did, but she did not say FBI 3 files. It was Betsy Pond who said FBI files. 4 Q Did you ever see printouts of the 5 data that either Deb Gorham or Betsy Pond was 6 inputting into the computer? 7 A I did not. No. 8 Q Do you know whether the inputs into 9 the computer were stored on hard drive or 10 diskette? 11 A I don't know. I don't know. Betsy 12 had disks on her desk, loose disks. They 13 could have been correspondence disks, 14 telephone log disks, or file disks. I have 15 no idea. 16 I routinely saved everything on the 17 hard drive at The White House, and those of 18 us in the west wing Counsel's Office 19 generally did, because we didn't have a great 20 deal of mass production, and there was no 21 need to keep a large pile of disks on hand. 22 We just deleted as we went along for space, 112 1 knowing that the record was never really 2 deleted. 3 Q Did you know whether or not 4 recordations on computer went into a backup 5 system, a server? 6 A We certainly understood that in the 7 Counsel's Office, yes. 8 Q Did you have to do anything in 9 particular in using the computer to make sure 10 it was backed up on a server? 11 A No, we were told, actually, that 12 everything, including our electronic mail 13 transmissions, were backed up on a giant big 14 brother kind of machine, and it has since 15 been proven to be true in my case. 16 Q Did people refer to it as Big 17 Brother? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Where was that Big Brother housed? 20 Did anyone discuss that? 21 A I don't remember, no. I don't 22 remember, sort of the big computer heaven in 113 1 the sky somewhere. I have no idea. I know 2 that computer people came over from the New 3 Executive Office Building to assist us when 4 we had problems. I don't know. 5 Q Was there ever any understanding in 6 The White House Counsel's Office that there 7 was any kind of surveillance system, video or 8 audio, to record what went on in that office? 9 A I'm sorry. In the counsel's 10 office? 11 Q Yes. 12 A I don't know. 13 Q Did anyone ever say that? 14 A Video or audio? I don't believe 15 so, huh-uh. 16 Q Was there ever any understanding 17 that such systems existed when you worked in 18 the President's office? 19 A Well, let me back up and tell you 20 that you're not, of course, referring to the 21 security alarm, correct? That the Counsel's 22 Office along with the Chief of Staff, the 114 1 Vice President, National Security Advisor, 2 and the President -- 3 MS. SHAPIRO: I would just like to 4 caution the witness not to talk about any 5 Secret Service systems or security control 6 devices. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify this. I 8 object to your interceding and instructing 9 this witness to do this or that. If you want 10 to discuss that with Mr. Zaccagnini, that's 11 fine, but for you to try to give her an 12 impression of what's appropriate or not on 13 the record is inappropriate. 14 MS. SHAPIRO: Well, it's inasmuch 15 as directed to Mr. Zaccagnini. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: If you want to go off 17 the record at some later point, that's fine. 18 MR. ZACCAGNINI: That's fine. Go 19 ahead, Mr. Klayman. 20 THE WITNESS: Can I answer or not? 21 MR. KLAYMAN: This is exactly the 22 problem, because she hears the U.S. 115 1 Department of Justice making that kind of 2 objection, and she wonders whether she's in 3 jeopardy in giving a response. 4 MS. SHAPIRO: We're entitled to 5 protect our interests here. There are 6 interests. She's a former government 7 employee and a current government employee. 8 If you like, we can take a break, and I'll 9 talk to Mr. Zaccagnini, and we can see what 10 she can testify to. 11 We also have, by the way, a court 12 order about Secret Service systems, which 13 you're aware. 14 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'd like to step 15 outside and talk to her for a second; so why 16 don't we go off the record? To Ms. Shapiro. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Can I be privy to the 18 conversation? 19 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Sure. 20 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off 21 video record at 12:31. 22 (Recess) 116 1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on 2 video record at 12:38. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Were you aware of any security 5 systems when you worked in the Office of the 6 President? 7 A Yes. 8 Q What types of security systems? 9 I'm not asking for the specifics. 10 MR. ZACCAGNINI: At this point in 11 time, Mr. Klayman, I'm going to advise 12 Ms. Tripp not to answer that question out of 13 concerns for national security. I would ask 14 that you defer any questions relating to the 15 security system, until we either take this up 16 with the judge, or you can show me an order 17 that would cause me to change my opinion. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Let me ask just a general question. 20 Did you have the impression that you were 21 being videotaped when you worked in the 22 President's Office? 117 1 MS. SHAPIRO: Asked and answered. 2 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'm going to 3 advise Ms. Tripp not to answer that question, 4 although I think she has already responded to 5 the question. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: That was The White 7 House Counsel's Office. 8 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Again, out of 9 national security concerns, I'm going to 10 advise her not to respond to that question . 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q When you saw this computer screen 14 that Betsy Pond was working on, other than 15 columns, did you note anything else? 16 A It wasn't just columns, but I 17 don't -- I know that it was unfamiliar to me. 18 It was not The White House Counsel's Office 19 correspondence tracking database. It was not 20 a database with which I was familiar with. 21 Q Did she ever tell you that only she 22 had access to that kind of a computer 118 1 program? 2 A I don't recall her saying that to 3 me. I don't know that that came up. 4 Q I may have asked this question 5 before, but just to be sure, were there White 6 House databases that Ms. Pond had access to 7 that you didn't? Were you aware of that? 8 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Only if you know 9 the answer to that. 10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 11 THE WITNESS: I knew that I didn't 12 have access to the one she was working on, 13 because in response to your earlier question, 14 the one that just preceded this one, the only 15 indication Betsy had given me at all about 16 the peculiar nature of this particular 17 database was in bemoaning the fact that it 18 was yet another software she had to learn, 19 and it was not her strongest ability, shall 20 we say, computers in general. And so, to the 21 extent that she explained that it was 22 frustrating to have to learn a new software 119 1 entry system, that was frustrating for Betsy. 2 And I did not know, nor was I familiar at all 3 with that database. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Was it a windows' format? Do you 6 know? 7 A I don't know. It was just a 8 screen. I don't remember what -- 9 Q Was there anything that was 10 circulated in The White House Counsel's 11 Office making reference to a new database 12 system in and around the time that you saw 13 Ms. Pond entering files into the system? 14 A I don't recall -- excuse me one 15 moment. 16 (Witness conferred with counsel) 17 THE WITNESS: The question was 18 concerning documents circulating; is that the 19 question? 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Was there any notification in the 22 office about a new database system in and 120 1 around that period of time that you had this 2 conversation with Ms. Pond about loading 3 files onto the computer? 4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Form. 5 THE WITNESS: Frankly, I don't 6 recall any such notification of any kind. I 7 wouldn't, most likely in my case, would not 8 have paid much attention, because it had 9 nothing to do with my particular role, which 10 was very -- had very little computer 11 application at all in my role in that office. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q During the time that you were in 14 The White House, did you ever see any written 15 materials or otherwise concerning the 16 handling of FBI files? 17 A I did not. 18 Q During the time that you were in 19 The White House, did you see any information 20 pertaining to the Privacy Act? 21 A Frequently, the Privacy Act, yes, 22 would come up, as it pertained to the release 121 1 of information to the public or to the 2 release of information in general. And I 3 know that that was an issue that arose 4 frequently in the Counsel's Office, but my 5 observation of that, at that time, would 6 simply have been to acknowledge that I was 7 hearing that we adhere to the Privacy Act in 8 a general understanding of what that implied 9 and nothing more. 10 Q It was your understanding that The 11 White House's counsel office adhered to the 12 Privacy Act? 13 A At the time, yes. 14 Q At the time you worked there? 15 A Yes. 16 Q It was your understanding at the 17 time you worked in the President's office 18 that the President's office also adhered to 19 the Privacy Act? 20 A Absolutely. Remember, I have 21 a 19-year government career. It never 22 occurred to me that -- I believe the Privacy 122 1 Act was instituted in 1974. I would never 2 have thought in the 1990s that in any 3 government agency it would be an issue for 4 debate. 5 Q During the time that you worked in 6 The White House, no one ever told you the 7 Privacy Act does not apply? 8 A Oh, no. No. 9 Q People did tell you the Privacy Act 10 does apply? 11 A Again, I don't recall a direct 12 conversation with anyone about whether or not 13 it did apply. My sense was that we adhered 14 to the Privacy Act restrictions. 15 Q You don't remember anything in 16 writing that specifically said the Privacy 17 Act does not apply to The White House? 18 A Oh, absolutely not. 19 Q Or any office of the White House? 20 A I would remember such a statement 21 anywhere. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: I think we can take a 123 1 lunch break at this point. Resume in an 2 hour. We're not sure we have the right 3 order, but if not, we'll get you some more 4 orders. We got orders that have orders. 5 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off 6 video record at 12:45. 7 (Whereupon, at 12:45 p.m., a 8 luncheon recess was taken.) 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 124 1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N 2 (1:52 p.m.) 3 Whereupon, 4 LINDA R. TRIPP 5 was recalled as a witness and, having been 6 previously duly sworn, was examined and 7 testified further as follows: 8 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFFS 9 CONTINUED 10 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on 11 video record at 1:52. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Ms. Tripp, before we broke for 14 lunch, we were asking about what types of 15 White House systems, either computer systems 16 or security systems -- we were talking about 17 security systems -- that you were aware of 18 when you worked there. We're not interested 19 in technical specifications but just what 20 type of systems were in existence, and I've 21 referred your counsel to an order of April 22 13, 1998, of this court at page 14. 125 1 MS. SHAPIRO: I think, then, if 2 this this what you intend on doing, we should 3 contact the court at this time because the 4 order that you referred to had to do with the 5 30(b)(6) deposition. It did not have to do 6 with security systems. I don't know if 7 Mr. Zaccagnini was made aware of the order 8 which explicitly says that Secret Service 9 systems and other systems of that nature are 10 irrelevant to this action. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm asking about 12 White House systems. If you're going to make 13 an issue of that, we'll defer that until 14 later and get back to this, and that's one 15 reason why we may want to have the hearing 16 with the court tomorrow morning. 17 MS. SHAPIRO: We'd like to do that 18 now, then. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: I know you'd like to 20 break up my deposition but you're not going 21 to do that. 22 MS. SHAPIRO: I think that's the 126 1 required procedure. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: We'll proceed the way 3 I want to proceed and I'm withdrawing the 4 question right now. I'd ask you not to run 5 out the clock with things after I've already 6 agreed with you. 7 MS. SHAPIRO: I don't understand 8 that comment but please proceed. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: I said we'll put it 10 off until later. 11 MS. SHAPIRO: Please proceed. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Ms. Tripp, you previously testified 14 that the computer that Betsy Pond told you 15 she was inputting FBI files on had been 16 Deborah Gorham's computer; is that correct? 17 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 18 THE WITNESS: I believe what I said 19 was that Deborah Gorham departed The White 20 House having left the computer she had had in 21 the West Wing at her duty station outside 22 Bill Kennedy's office. Betsy then took that 127 1 position and that desk and to the best of my 2 knowledge retained that computer. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q So the computer wasn't moved 5 somewhere else and then moved back? That was 6 the impression we had this morning. 7 A It was moved from the West Wing 8 against my recommendations for other salient 9 reasons and was moved to her new location, 10 Deborah Gorham's new location, outside Bill 11 Kennedy's office. That's one computer that 12 went from the West Wing counsel's office, a 13 secured office, to an Old EOB open office. 14 Q And why did you have concern that 15 it was being moved from a secured office to 16 an open office? 17 A We were in the midst of various 18 inquiries as to the aftermath of Vince 19 Foster's death, and I raised the issue with 20 Steve Neuwirth -- actually, with Bernie 21 Nussbuam initially, who agreed that it would 22 not be smart to allow the computer which 128 1 required compartmentalized password codes to 2 access some of the data in that computer to 3 leave a secured office, and we informed 4 Deborah Gorham that she would receive a 5 similar if not exact duplicate of her machine 6 at her new location, and that's the way it 7 was left until a day or so later, when I 8 returned to the counsel's office and her 9 computer was missing. So it had been moved 10 and Steve Neuwirth had authorized its move. 11 Q What was Steve Neuwirth's position 12 at the time? 13 A I think his title was one of the 14 many associate counsel to the President. 15 Q Had you recommended to Mr. Neuwirth 16 or others that that computer prior to being 17 moved be secured? 18 A Well, I had to Mr. Nussbaum, who 19 agreed with me. I had intended to speak with 20 Steve Neuwirth, who generally sort of became 21 the logistical coordination between the Old 22 EOB and the West Wing. I don't remember if I 129 1 had a direct conversation with him prior to 2 that. I did have one with Deborah Gorham 3 following my conversation with Bernie, 4 explained the rationale and why the decision 5 had been made. 6 She was not happy with it, went to 7 Steve Neuwirth independently, and he 8 authorized its move. I did speak to him 9 immediately thereafter and expressed my 10 outrage. And his reply to me was, "I never 11 thought of that." 12 Q What I'm trying to understand is 13 the computer that Betsy Pond was entering the 14 FBI file data was that different than the 15 computer that had originally been moved of 16 Deborah Gorham? 17 A I have no way of knowing. 18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q You don't know? 21 A Sorry. 22 Q And which office did Deborah 130 1 Gorham's computer go to originally? 2 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 3 THE WITNESS: Bill Kennedy's outer 4 office, where she sat for the rest of her 5 tenure at The White House. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Deborah Gorham? 8 A Yeah. 9 Q Until she left? 10 A (Nodding) 11 Q And you don't know whether Betsy 12 Pond inherited that particular computer? 13 A I don't know that for a fact, no. 14 Q Based on your knowledge and 15 experience in working in The White House, 16 where would computers be stored if they're no 17 longer in service? 18 A There's a large computer office, 19 computer functions office, the name I don't 20 recall at this moment, that serviced all our 21 needs, removed computers, repaired them, 22 brought us new, updated them, and where we 131 1 were told the back repository was located, 2 and I'm not real sure exactly where they were 3 located. I know a portion of that office was 4 located in the New EOB. I don't know if the 5 basement of the Old EOB was part of that as 6 well because some of our calls went to a 7 different location than the new EOB. 8 Q You said that Deborah Gorham's 9 computer, the original one that you were 10 concerned about, had access codes, correct? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Did the Betsy Pond computer that 13 was used for entering FBI files have access 14 codes to? 15 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to the 16 form. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q You can respond. 19 A I don't know. 20 Q Now, did there come a point -- 21 A May I just finish that? 22 Q Sure. 132 1 A I don't know because I never 2 accessed Betsy Pond's or -- I never accessed 3 the computer at which Betsy Pond sat once 4 that computer moved to the Old EOB. So 5 whether it was the same one or a different 6 one, I never sat at the computer and opened 7 it or entered it in any way. That was not 8 the case with the computer when it was in Deb 9 Gorham's workstation in the counsel's office. 10 Often I would access that computer and -- in 11 her absence or when it was appropriate and 12 often the screen would flash, too, that you 13 needed a passcode for this file. 14 Q That was Gorham's computer? 15 A Right. 16 Q But did Betsy Pond's screen ever 17 flash that you needed an access code? 18 A In the West Wing? 19 Q Yes. 20 A No, nor did mine, nor did anyone 21 else's. 22 Q Did you ever see any computer that 133 1 Betsy Pond was using that flashed notating 2 that it was a passcode that was required? 3 A I have no information about that. 4 Q Now, this morning you testified 5 about a file labeled "Dale" and files that 6 were similar to a file labeled "Dale" that 7 later made their way from Vince Foster's 8 office apparently into Vince Foster's safe? 9 A Correct. 10 Q And you testified that you saw 11 other files in that safe that looked similar 12 to those files, correct? 13 A Correct. 14 Q And you testified that they later 15 were identified to you as FBI files, correct? 16 A I testified that files with a 17 similar commonality to those files that you 18 just spoke of were FBI files, that's true. 19 Q And did there come a point in time 20 when you saw other files that looked like 21 those I've just identified? 22 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 134 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q In The White House counsel's 3 office? 4 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: That's just for the 6 record. Let me rephrase it. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q You testified with regard to the 9 Dale file and similar files, and you 10 testified that in Foster's safe you saw files 11 that were similar to those? 12 A Right. 13 Q And you testified later that Betsy 14 Pond told you she was entering FBI files into 15 her computer? 16 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q You can respond. Correct? 19 A Well, I think the last part of it 20 isn't exactly true. She said she was 21 entering data and referred to "the files" and 22 pointed back to the location where the files 135 1 we had referenced in an earlier conversation 2 had been. My assumption from that was that 3 they were FBI files. 4 Q And they looked like what had been 5 identified as FBI files? 6 A Yes. Absolutely, mm-hmm. 7 Q Now, did there come a point in time 8 when you saw other files in that office, not 9 those I've just identified but additional 10 files that looked similar? 11 A You mean I did see these very same 12 sort of files in Craig Livingstone's office. 13 Q Yes. When did you see them in 14 Craig Livingstone's office? 15 A More than one time and far fewer 16 than were in Bill Kennedy's office but still 17 the same look again. But I was told that 18 those were not security background files 19 because I asked the question on a visit over 20 there on administrative tasking that had to 21 do with Craig Livingstone's assistant, and 22 that day I asked Craig and I also asked 136 1 Anthony Marceca at one point if all those 2 files were past applications or security 3 backgrounds for White House staff. 4 This was quite a ways into the 5 first year, and many White House staff were 6 still wearing the temporary blue passes. So 7 I assumed at first that perhaps all the files 8 could have been security, but I was told they 9 were not. 10 Q Are you referring to the Office of 11 Personnel Security? 12 A I believe that's how it is named, 13 yes. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: I show you what I'll 15 ask the court reporter to mark as Exhibit 6. 16 (Tripp Deposition Exhibit No. 6 17 was marked for identification.) 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Exhibit 6 is an article written by 20 Brian Blomquist of The New York Post, "Tripp: 21 Telling the Truth's Very Easy," consists of 22 three pages. 137 1 A When was this written? 2 Q It was written on or about July 1, 3 1998. The date's on the right-hand corner at 4 the bottom. 5 MR. GAFFNEY: That's when it was 6 printed out. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Well, it was in that time period. 9 A I see. 10 Q And I'm just going to use it to 11 refresh your recollection. Incidentally, in 12 answer to your question, the first paragraph 13 says, "Washington Starr Sexgate witness Linda 14 Tripp spent more than seven hours before the 15 Sexgate grand jury yesterday and is set to be 16 back on the stand with tales of more 17 scandals." Apparently, this was written 18 after your appearance before the grand jury. 19 A And obviously not by The Washington 20 Post, huh? 21 Q No. How can you tell that? 22 A Just guessing. 138 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Have anything to do 2 with the content? 3 (Pause) 4 THE WITNESS: Yes. What is your 5 question, Mr. Klayman? 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q I'm turning to the third page, 8 between the second and the third page, at the 9 bottom of the second page where it says, 10 "Tripp, who worked with White House counsel 11 Vince Foster before he killed himself, could 12 face questions about the improper acquisition 13 of FBI files on Republicans by The White 14 House and the Whitewater financial scandal. 15 Starr also is probing Filegate and 16 Whitewater." 17 Going on to the third page, 18 "Goldberg said Tripp told her she witnessed a 19 White House secretary loading up FBI files on 20 a computer. Did you tell Lucianne Goldberg 21 that"? 22 A I may have actually in 1996. 139 1 Q And then it states, "She was there 2 when she came in with hand trucks of FBI 3 files one day. She walked over to use 4 another secretary's computer to get a phone 5 number and found the screen flashed up 6 'encrypted.'" Is that an accurate recitation 7 of what you told Lucianne Goldberg? 8 A No. 9 Q What is not accurate about it? 10 A Well, this appears to be in Lucy's 11 peculiar style. I don't know what a hand 12 truck is, and I never witnessed hand trucks 13 or any other sort of trucks loading or 14 unloading FBI files at The White House. This 15 reference to "encrypted" I can only surmise 16 references the password entry key that was 17 necessary on Deb Gorham's machine while still 18 housed in the counsel's office West Wing, 19 where certain words would prompt a passcode 20 entry necessity. The word "encrypted" I 21 don't recall. 22 Q What is a hand truck to you? 140 1 A I have no idea. 2 Q Later on, when you worked in The 3 White House Counsel's Office, did you become 4 aware of FBI files other than those you 5 identified this morning? 6 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Form. 7 THE WITNESS: Well, I think it's 8 fair to say for the record that I to this 9 date don't know what I saw, but I am certain 10 in my own mind what I saw. It's probably 11 important to note that I never saw an FBI 12 folder or any folder that was emblazoned with 13 the seal of the FBI or the Department of 14 Justice in any way. I think I've stated that 15 I can say with confidence what they were not 16 and can say with confidence what I was told 17 they were. I don't know that I can say with 18 confidence what they were in actuality. 19 Q Well, what were you told? 20 A I was told they were FBI files by 21 Betsy Pond. I believe they were FBI files. 22 I'm just saying that, knowing that we have 141 1 such an illustrious group of attorneys 2 surrounding this table, that at one point I 3 will be asked to defend my statements, and I 4 intend to testify completely truthfully 5 regardless of how the chips may fall. I have 6 done so and to the best of my ability, I 7 might add. So that's about all I can tell 8 you about those files. 9 Q Tell us who had access to files 10 that were identified by Betsy Pond as FBI 11 files when you worked in The White House 12 counsel's office? 13 A Well, to my limited knowledge, the 14 only individuals I saw with access would be 15 Vince Foster, Bill Kennedy, Betsy Pond, and 16 those other people who attended the Travel 17 Office meetings whom I listed for you earlier 18 and only in that they attended a meeting 19 where the files came in and did not leave. 20 Q Did you ever see Bill Kennedy with 21 files that you believed were FBI files? 22 A Yes. 142 1 Q When was that? 2 A Excuse me one moment. 3 (Witness conferred with counsel) 4 THE WITNESS: At one point, and I'm 5 uncertain with the date, I observed Bill 6 Kennedy in the hallway of the Old EOB in 7 close proximity to his office holding some of 8 those same file folders which had that 9 familiar look by that point in a conversation 10 with Marcia Scott. The conversation I 11 overheard had to do with database. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Did you hear anything more? 14 A Yes. 15 Q What else did you hear? 16 MS. SHAPIRO: Well, I can object to 17 the relevancy. Could we take a break for a 18 moment, please? We need to discuss 19 something. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: No. I want to get 21 the testimony right now. 22 MS. SHAPIRO: We can't allow her to 143 1 testify until we determine whether she 2 overheard something that is protected. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: We're going to 4 continue with the testimony. There's nothing 5 that is in any way out of the ordinary. 6 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I think at this 7 point in time I believe we should recess. I 8 think the information that Ms. Tripp would 9 divulge would include privilege. I think 10 it's incumbent upon me because that party's 11 Linda's employer so they can ascertain 12 whether to assert the privilege. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Let's take a brief 14 break. 15 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off 16 video record at 2:12. 17 (Recess) 18 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on 19 video record at 2:23. 20 MS. SHAPIRO: Our privilege 21 concerns are satisfied, so we're not imposing 22 an objection. 144 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Thank you. You can respond, 3 assuming you remember the question. 4 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Please repeat the 5 question, Mr. Klayman. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q I believe your testimony was that 8 you saw William Kennedy with a stack of what 9 you took to be FBI files under his arm 10 discussing The White House database with 11 Betsy Pond -- 12 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 13 Mischaracterizes. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Why don't you 15 rephrase it, Linda? 16 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Why don't you set 17 the tone correctly, set the scene correctly, 18 and then provide the substance of that 19 conversation. 20 THE WITNESS: What little there 21 was. There were two such conversations which 22 I recall. One was in the hallway in the Old 145 1 EOB in close proximity to Bill Kennedy's Old 2 EOB office with Marcia Scott, and the very 3 brief portion of the conversation that I 4 heard before I was seen was referencing the 5 files in his hand, which again shared that 6 same commonality with all the other ones, but 7 it was as though Marcia Scott was instructing 8 Bill Kennedy, which was somewhat unusual, in 9 my opinion, based on their differing roles, 10 about the database. 11 And the portion of the conversation 12 that I heard involved entering this 13 information into a database here at The White 14 House and shared with the DNC so that both 15 would have access to this database, whatever 16 that database might be. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q When approximately did this 19 conversation take place? What year was it? 20 A I believe, and again I'm vague on 21 the time, it had to have been either very 22 late in '93 or very early in '94. I was 146 1 always sensitive to Marcia Scott issues 2 because technically The White House counsel's 3 office, Bruce Lindsey and Vince Foster, had 4 brokered a deal with Marcia Scott who owned 5 me on paper and who had agreed to allow me to 6 accept a position with Bernie Nussbuam and be 7 assigned on paper to the counsel's office but 8 belong technically to correspondence from 9 whence I came, which allowed me to maintain 10 the apolitical nature of my appointment and 11 thus my viability through differing opposing 12 administrations. 13 So there had been some tension with 14 Marcia Scott and myself from early on having 15 to do with roles and functions from the early 16 days of the administration. So, in any 17 event, whenever Marcia Scott was speaking to 18 anybody in the counsel's office, I was 19 somewhat wary, and so I listened whenever I 20 could. This was one such time. 21 Q Now, you touched on a number of 22 issues. Let's take them one by one. The 147 1 entry into the database, did you take that to 2 mean the files that Mr. Kennedy was carrying 3 at the time? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And these were the files that had 6 the same characteristics as what you 7 understood to be FBI files? 8 A Yeah. It was relatively speaking 9 in a very short window of time to the 10 conversation I had had with Betsy Pond about 11 FBI files. So, I mean, this wasn't -- and 12 still I wasn't seeing any sort of nefarious 13 intent here. It just was something I was 14 taking in. 15 Q Well, because at that time you 16 didn't know about the FBI files controversy? 17 A No. 18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 19 THE WITNESS: Well, I was not 20 cognizant at all of this being possibly 21 something illegal or something in violation 22 of privacy. I had just assumed that, if it 148 1 was done at The White House, for the most 2 part it was a government agency and they knew 3 what they were doing. I mean, it just didn't 4 register as a problem at that point. Only 5 the seeds had been planted, shall we say, but 6 not anything concrete. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q And you said at the time that you 9 took note of this conversation because of the 10 differing roles of William Kennedy and Marcia 11 Scott, correct? 12 A Correct. 13 Q What were those differing roles? 14 A Well, my experience had been that 15 -- well, first of all, Bill Kennedy, as a 16 rather senior associate in The White House 17 counsel's office with seemingly a great deal 18 more influence than his peers, and Marcia 19 Scott, who was at that time the director of 20 presidential correspondence, whose 21 interaction with The White House counsel's 22 office at that level on a professional basis 149 1 had been rather limited. 2 We had -- I was able to observe 3 from early May on the comings and goings and 4 the phone calls of the senior staff and the 5 principals in my office, Marcia Scott, wasn't 6 one other than to invite Vince on Tuesday 7 nights to their Arkansan reunion dinners. So 8 it was something that I took note of when she 9 popped up. 10 Q You said that William Kennedy's 11 influence seemed to be greater than what his 12 position would ordinarily create? 13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q That was your impression. He was 16 an associate counsel, correct? 17 A Yeah, and at this point in time I 18 don't remember whether he had just a slightly 19 more illustrious title than associate 20 counsel, but it was, in any event, I don't 21 believe much different from Beth Nolan or 22 some of the folks who were also associates in 150 1 the counsel's office. 2 Q You understood him to have 3 tremendous influence? 4 A Oh, absolutely. 5 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q And was your understanding based 8 upon his prior relationship at the Rose Law 9 Firm with Hillary Clinton? 10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 11 Foundation. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q You can respond. 14 A I believe that my impression was 15 formed earlier than that. It was in the 16 immediate office of the President when I was 17 first introduced to Bill Kennedy along with 18 Vince Foster and several others at which time 19 his value and importance to the 20 administration and to the Clintons was made 21 quite plain to me. 22 Q And who made it plain to you? 151 1 A Bruce Lindsey, Deb Coyle, Nancy 2 Hernreich. 3 Q And what did one or more of them 4 tell you about his importance to the 5 administration, and identify who it was? 6 A I'm sorry. I can't remember who 7 said what at that -- my impression from all 8 of them was that he was a valued friend and 9 extremely loyal former partner; in fact, I 10 believe they had said managing partner of 11 Mrs. Clinton's law firm along with Vince 12 Foster, who had also been a partner, 13 apparently, and it was a very close -- a 14 feeling of closeness that was relayed to me. 15 In other words, his calls were 16 taken far more easily than, say, someone else 17 of his position. In fact, frequently -- I'm 18 trying to think of another associate who 19 might have called at that time Bruce Lindsey, 20 who was senior advisor to the President at 21 that time, or the President or Nancy 22 Hernreich directly, and I can't think of any. 152 1 Q Were you aware of Marcia Scott's 2 importance to the Clintons at the time you 3 observed that conversation? 4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 5 THE WITNESS: I was aware of how 6 Marcia Scott portrayed her importance to the 7 Clintons at that point in time. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q She had portrayed it to you? 10 A Mm-hmm, and to anyone else who 11 would listen. 12 Q And what did she tell you about her 13 importance vis-a-vis the Clintons? 14 A That she was a valued friend for 15 many years, had been a former girlfriend of 16 the President, still enjoyed a very close 17 relationship with the President. 18 Q What do you mean by "close"? 19 A She said a very close relationship. 20 There were opportunities on weekends when we 21 were working where she would often intimate 22 that she was hopping over to the residence to 153 1 see the President and watch a football game 2 and that sort of thing. It was her way of 3 letting us know that she was an insider. We 4 certainly got the message. 5 Q Did there come a point in time when 6 you became aware that she had involvement 7 with President Clinton's alleged prior 8 relationships? 9 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'm going to 10 object and instruct the witness not to 11 respond to that inquiry because I don't 12 believe it's in any way relevant. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll hold it for 14 later. It's getting to the threat issue but 15 I'll hold it for later. 16 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 17 Relevance. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q You are aware, are you not, 20 Ms. Tripp, of articles that have been written 21 by people such as Dick Morris who have stated 22 that Marcia Scott was the person who dealt 154 1 with the so-called bimbo problem of the 2 President? 3 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form and 4 relevance. 5 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Are you aware of 6 the articles? 7 THE WITNESS: I heard the question. 8 May I answer it? 9 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Yes. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Yes. 12 A I don't know that I'm aware of 13 articles, and I don't recall knowing this 14 information prior to '97. 15 Q Did she ever tell you that one of 16 her roles in her association with President 17 Clinton was to keep people who might expose 18 things about his past from doing so? 19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 20 Relevance. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q You can respond. 155 1 A No, not in that way. I for better 2 or worse coined the term "protecters," the 3 protecters, the facilitators, the graduates, 4 and Marcia was the original graduate in my 5 book. She was not what I perceived at the 6 time to be a protecter. 7 Q What is a protecter? 8 A For my purposes, protecter would 9 have been Betty -- Bruce -- 10 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Excuse me for a 11 second. 12 (Witness conferred with counsel) 13 THE WITNESS: In my mind, the 14 protecters were the individuals who either 15 were assigned or took upon theirselfs the 16 role of protecting the President, often from 17 himself. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q And who were those people? 20 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'm going to 21 object. 22 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 156 1 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I think again 2 we're way far afield. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: We're dealing here 4 with a bona fide Clinton controversy called 5 Filegate, and I want to know who the 6 protecters are that may have protected him 7 from that controversy. This is discovery 8 that may lead to relevant evidence. 9 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'd like to 10 suggest a more appropriate question which 11 might be does Mrs. Tripp know of any people 12 who were protecting the President's interest 13 with respect to Filegate. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: She may or may not 15 know about that but the issue is whether I 16 can go beyond that because of discovery. If 17 she doesn't have a direct hit, that still 18 doesn't mean I can't find out who she thought 19 the protecters were. Then I can go out and 20 depose and ask if they have knowledge about 21 Filegate. 22 MS. SHAPIRO: There's a court order 157 1 on the table, Mr. Klayman. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: There's a lot of 3 things on the table but the court order is 4 not one of them that's relevant to this 5 question. 6 MS. SHAPIRO: It does say that this 7 inquiry will be limited to the FBI files 8 matter. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes, you take that 10 direct hit, Ms. Shapiro, and I'll be very 11 happy to go into court because obviously you 12 know that is not the scope of the judge's 13 order, and I'm entitled to gather information 14 of people who may have knowledge about this 15 controversy and this question was posed in a 16 very neutral sense. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Who are the protecters? I don't 19 see that it's objectionable. 20 MS. SHAPIRO: We think it's 21 objectionable and I register my objection 22 that it's outside the scope of the court's 158 1 order. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: I'd like to get an 3 answer to that question. 4 MR. ZACCAGNINI: You may answer. 5 THE WITNESS: Again, this is only 6 my perception, so I don't know how important 7 that is. My perception at the time was that 8 Evelyn Lieberman was a protecter, Bruce 9 Lindsey was a protecter, Nancy Hernreich was 10 a protecter. 11 There were a couple of other ones 12 that right now the names just don't -- I may 13 have testified to this -- in fact, I believe 14 I did, to the grand jury, a complete list of 15 those people I consider to be protecters. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Is that testimony public now? Do 18 you know? 19 A I think so. 20 Q What relationship, if any, did 21 Lieberman have with Hillary Clinton? 22 (Witness conferred with counsel) 159 1 THE WITNESS: The extent of my 2 knowledge, again, is only firsthand 3 observation and hearsay, the things that 4 people have passed on to me. When I met 5 Evelyn Lieberman, she was -- I was told she 6 was Hillary's executive assistant in the Old 7 EOB and in fact she was one with whom I 8 interacted relatively frequently when I was 9 working in the counsel's office. Is there 10 something up there? 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Is that light bothering you? 13 A I'm probably squinting just 14 because -- 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Let's go off the 16 record for a second. 17 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off 18 video record at 2:38. 19 (Recess) 20 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on 21 video record at 2:39. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 160 1 Q Did anyone ever tell you that 2 Ms. Lieberman was effectively the eyes and 3 ears of Hillary Clinton, something to that 4 effect? 5 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 6 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 7 THE WITNESS: Yes, more than one 8 person. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q And that was her reputation around 11 The White House when you were there? 12 A At least it was the reputation that 13 I was privy to. I don't know what other 14 people's perception was. 15 Q Now, who were the graduates? 16 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'm going to 17 object and I'm going to instruct the witness 18 not to answer those questions with respect to 19 who are the graduates are. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q What is a graduate? 22 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Again, I'll object 161 1 and advise her not to -- 2 MR. KLAYMAN: This is discovery. 3 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I understand that 4 but this is discovery in which there is no 5 conceivable way it will lead to admissible 6 evidence. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: I would hope that we 8 can come to some kind of understanding. 9 We're entitled to know how The White House 10 functioned as she saw it because that has a 11 bearing on the whole Filegate controversy 12 issue. It's hardly an intrusive question. 13 MR. ZACCAGNINI: It's intrusive not 14 only in the nature of the question but in 15 identifying the graduates it would be 16 personally harmful and embarrassing to them 17 and having absolutely no relevance to this 18 case. I mean none whatsoever. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Can I ask what a 20 graduate is? How are you defining that? 21 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Yes, please. 22 THE WITNESS: Again, this was my 162 1 nomenclature. It was something that just 2 became a word that was adopted by Monica 3 Lewinsky and others over time because it just 4 seemed appropriate, the names -- the 5 categories under which these people fell. A 6 graduate was in our -- in my opinion, the 7 definition I used was an admitted former 8 girlfriend of the President who had remained 9 a loyal confidant and supporter. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q And who still worked in the White 12 House? 13 A Not necessarily. Some did, 14 certainly. By still being in The White House 15 would imply that that was part of the 16 criteria to be a graduate and that wasn't. 17 Q You're not implying that Dustin 18 Hoffman was a graduate, are you? 19 A I wouldn't know. I hope not. 20 MR. GILLIGAN: He was only a girl 21 in Tootsie. 22 THE WITNESS: Well, I'm a man in 163 1 Esquire, so there you go. What can I tell 2 you? I wouldn't know. Sorry. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Did there come a point in time when 5 you heard Mr. Kennedy or Ms. Scott talk about 6 entry into White House database other than 7 that one instance? 8 A Yeah, another conversation. 9 Actually, this was the second conversation. 10 This time it was outside the counsel's 11 office, which was directly adjacent to -- it 12 was immediately adjacent to Mrs. Clinton's 13 office, and it was in the hallway right in 14 front of those two offices. 15 I don't believe at the time that if 16 Bill Kennedy had files with him that I 17 noticed. He had something with him. I 18 didn't make the connection to files during 19 that particular conversation, but he and 20 Marcia referenced files again and database 21 and referenced input of file material into 22 the database. 164 1 Again, it was more Marcia 2 instructing Mr. Kennedy, and she named 3 Mrs. Clinton and said that she, Mrs. Clinton, 4 wanted this done. And actually stressed the 5 point by pointing. 6 Q Pointing where? To Mrs. Clinton's 7 office? 8 A Correct. The only other she in 9 that office, to the best of my knowledge, was 10 Pam Bennett Ciccetti, who was her -- I 11 believe her executive assistant in the West 12 Wing. 13 Q Did you ever hear Marcia Scott use 14 the term "Big Brother"? 15 A I don't believe I heard Marcia use 16 that term, no, but I had heard it from 17 others, and I don't recall from whom. 18 Q And it was in the context of White 19 House databases? 20 A Mm-hmm. 21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 22 THE WITNESS: Well, I -- and again 165 1 I don't know that this was a database. I had 2 heard it as it related to backup systems and 3 the preservation of all materials. This is 4 prior to the time that we had -- and I think 5 The White House might still have a system 6 that literally identifies Presidential 7 records or not on the computer as you go 8 along. Prior to that, we had not had that on 9 the machines. 10 Q When did The White House first get 11 that type of a system? 12 A I think, if memory serves me 13 correctly, it was during the earlier part of 14 the first administration of President 15 Clinton, I think. 16 Q Did there come a point in time when 17 you became aware that Marcia Scott was 18 overseeing the creation of such a system? 19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q You can respond. 22 A Well, that was my sense. I may be 166 1 wrong. That's what I derived from the tone 2 and mode and verbiage of the conversations I 3 witnessed with she and Bill Kennedy. 4 Q Did you ever hear Bruce Lindsey 5 discuss such a system? 6 A No. 7 Q Do you know whether Bruce Lindsey 8 had access to such a database? 9 A I don't know. 10 Q Now, the second time that you 11 overheard Marcia Scott and Bill Kennedy 12 talking about the database and the reference 13 to Mrs. Clinton, did he have files in his 14 hand as well? 15 A I'm sorry. Was that the second 16 time? 17 Q Second time. 18 A I don't remember. I know -- my 19 sense is he had something in his hand, but 20 it's been -- I don't -- it doesn't stick out 21 as the way the first conversation did, and I 22 think the reason, just for clarification, 167 1 that that was so clear was that it was in 2 very close proximity to the time that Betsy 3 Pond had identified what those files were. 4 Q Did there come a point in time when 5 you became aware that there were files of 6 Republicans in The White House counsel's 7 office? 8 A Yes. 9 Q When was that? If it's more than 10 one time, you can list them. 11 (Witness conferred with counsel) 12 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. Where 13 were we? 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Did there come a point in time when 16 you became aware that there were files of 17 Republicans in The White House counsel's 18 office? 19 A Yes. 20 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q When was that? 168 1 A I can't tell you for certain when 2 the first time was. I can tell you for 3 instance that, if the question is not limited 4 to Republicans but people other -- other 5 people, then I could probably give you a 6 little more information. 7 Q What do you mean by "other people"? 8 A Well, I don't know what the 9 politics of certain individuals might be, and 10 so I don't know what their party affiliation 11 would be. 12 Q Do you remember specific names? 13 A Well, yes. Of course, there was 14 Dale, whose political leanings I just don't 15 know. I believe he had served under, I 16 believe, four or five Presidents and in fact 17 had told me that he was completely 18 apolitical, and then the other -- excuse me 19 one moment. 20 (Witness conferred with counsel) 21 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Is the scope of 22 that question limited to in the counsel's 169 1 office? 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q I'll ask first in the counsel's 4 office and then in The White House generally. 5 A And then again another individual 6 whose party affiliation I'm unfamiliar with, 7 and that was a file that I saw in Vince 8 Foster's safe located in Bernie Nussbuam's 9 office, who also was unceremoniously fired -- 10 Q Who was that? 11 A Shortly after the time I saw the 12 file. That was Chris Emory. 13 Q And where did he work? 14 A He was in The White House usher's 15 office in the residence. 16 Q When did you see that file? 17 A Prior to his being asked to leave. 18 Q What time period was that? 19 A I can't remember. I know that I 20 saw it in the same file. I don't recall 21 seeing it the same day that I saw the Dale 22 and other files. 170 1 Q But you also saw it in Bernie 2 Nussbuam's safe that was in Bernie Nussbuam's 3 office? 4 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 5 the question. 6 THE WITNESS: I need to clarify 7 here. I have never seen Bernie Nussbuam with 8 anything having to do with them. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q I'm asking whether you saw this 11 Emory file in the safe that was in Bernie 12 Nussbuam's office? 13 A Right. To me it's very important 14 to -- it's a fine line, and the people whose 15 safe it was and who had access to and who 16 used that safe routinely to retrieve and 17 secure did not include Bernie Nussbuam, from 18 my experience, unless he did it at midnight 19 when everyone else was home in bed. 20 Q So you never saw Bernie Nussbuam 21 accessing the safe? 22 A Never. 171 1 Q But you can't say he never did? 2 A I would be willing to say he never 3 did independent of anyone else's assistance. 4 Q But you don't know what he did late 5 at night? 6 A He didn't develop dexterity, you 7 know, in the evening. 8 Q You like Bernie Nussbuam, correct? 9 A I respect Bernie Nussbuam. I like 10 him as a person but I'm not here to defend 11 his honor, if that's what you mean. 12 Q Before the deposition today have 13 you had any contact or has your counsel had 14 any contact with lawyers for Bernie Nussbuam 15 in this case? 16 A I don't know. You might ask the 17 lawyers. I have not had any contact with 18 Bernie Nussbuam since, I think, May of '94. 19 I think it was May-June time frame. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Let's just switch 21 with Mr. Zaccagnini right now because the 22 video's having difficulty with that shadow, 172 1 if you could switch seats. Is that all 2 right? 3 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'm not a deponent 4 here, Mr. Klayman, and I'm not going to 5 answer any questions. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not asking you 7 questions. You're paranoid, Mr. Zaccagnini. 8 MR. ZACCAGNINI: You were getting 9 ready to ask me questions about contact with 10 Mr. Nussbaum's counsel, and I was not 11 intending to answer. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Are you still wired up, Linda? 14 A Not yet. 15 MR. ZACCAGNINI: That was a bad 16 pun, Mr. Klayman. 17 THE WITNESS: Oh, please, not from 18 my own attorney. 19 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Let me change the 20 electronics here a little bit. Mr. Klayman, 21 do you want Deposition Exhibit 6 back? 22 MR. FITTON: Yes, please. 173 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Were there other persons whose 3 files you saw in The White House counsel's 4 office? 5 A Yes, in Bill Kennedy's office. 6 Q And who were they? 7 A This is -- I don't have a specific 8 recollection of a lot of the names that I did 9 see. I can tell you that my impression from 10 the names I did see from different stacks -- 11 my impression was that these were people from 12 the Bush Administration whose names were 13 familiar to me and for the most part the 14 names were of relatively low-ranking 15 employees such as myself with only a few 16 exceptions of people of relatively high 17 ranking. 18 I believe a Congressman, I think -- 19 and I've discussed this with my counsel. At 20 one point in time I believe I saw 21 Representative Clinger's file, late. I also 22 believe that I saw a handful of senior Bush 174 1 Administration officials' files, and the rest 2 were, as I said, relatively small ones. 3 The reason that I'm hesitant to 4 give you names is that from the time I you 5 saw those files until the time this past 6 year, 1998, when I actually read a full 7 listing in one of the print outlets of the 8 names, I'm not sure if I'm remembering from 9 the list or from seeing them in person, so 10 I'm hesitant to be more specific. 11 Q This is discovery, and with that 12 qualifier you can tell us who you think you 13 remember seeing at that time with that 14 qualifier. 15 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I would caution 16 the witness not to speculate, please. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, but she has to 18 testify as to what she believes she saw. 19 THE WITNESS: Let me tell you that 20 when I read the list at the time that the 21 list was published in The Washington Post or 22 New York Times -- I'm not sure which but it 175 1 was this past year in 1998 -- when I read the 2 list, the names that I recall seeing were on 3 the list with the exception of at least two. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q And who were the two? 6 A And I don't remember. I would 7 almost have to, and I have not refreshed my 8 memory by looking at the list again since the 9 time that I happened to read it that day in 10 the newspaper. 11 Q Would Representative Clinger's be 12 one of the names that wasn't on the list? 13 A I can't remember. I'm sorry. 14 Q Well, you may be able to refresh 15 your recollection now, but before we get into 16 that, when did you see these files in 17 Kennedy's office? Was it on one occasion? 18 More than one occasion? 19 A Many. Many. Now, remember, I 20 didn't know what they were. I just knew -- 21 in fact, I had thought to myself on more than 22 one occasion that this must be why the 176 1 vetting process is so cumbersome and so slow 2 and why we keep taking hits routinely for 3 being so slow in vetting the potential 4 appointees. But I learned during the time 5 that Bobby Inman that the vetting files and 6 all about vetting was completely different 7 looking than these files. 8 Q Than what you had seen in Kennedy's 9 office? 10 A Right, and as a matter of fact he 11 intimated to me that these weren't vetting 12 files early on when I first asked him the 13 question. So, putting all the pieces 14 together that I was exposed to, there was a 15 pretty connect-the-dots sort of way to see 16 they weren't -- I knew what they weren't. I 17 just didn't know what they were, and I didn't 18 know the significance of what they were. 19 Q Let's back up. Were you in 20 Kennedy's office on a routine basis? 21 A I wouldn't say on a routine basis 22 but on several occasions, yes. We often 177 1 would chat about his adopted babies, and he 2 was then going through marital difficulties 3 and would talk about that and the difficulty 4 of having to be separated from his children, 5 financial, that sort of thing. He was very 6 nice, and I had I think a very nice cordial 7 relationship with Mr. Kennedy. 8 Q When was the first time 9 approximately you were in his office? 10 A I believe I did not go over to his 11 office until I moved to the counsel's office 12 in May of '94 -- I'm sorry -- May of '93. 13 Q And what was the occasion that you 14 first went into his office? 15 A I have no idea. I mean, I really 16 don't remember. I was over across the Old 17 EOB relatively frequently. 18 Q Did you go into his office for 19 business matters from time to time? 20 A Sometimes, sure. 21 Q And what were the types of business 22 matters that you would go into his office 178 1 for? 2 A Oh, often I'd be going to the 3 credit union and Bernie would need something 4 from Bill or wanted to pass something on, and 5 I said I just wanted to stop by on the way 6 back or off to lunch or something like that. 7 Bernie didn't go to the Old EOB routinely. 8 There were times when I chose to 9 visit Mr. Kennedy to address issues of 10 concern that I thought and in fact that 11 Bernie had suggested Bill would be the 12 appropriate person with whom to discuss these 13 issues. And so occasionally I would go over 14 there, and I think I had those sorts of 15 conversations on at least two occasions if 16 not more. 17 But there were frequent other times 18 when it wasn't with a bona fide business 19 agenda in which we had casual conversations 20 for a good ten minutes in his office where we 21 discussed the architecture, we discussed the 22 beautiful framed photographs of his family on 179 1 the mantle or we discussed the stacks and 2 stacks of files in his office. 3 Q Did you discuss the stacks and 4 stacks of files in his office with him? 5 A Yeah. I made a joke that the -- 6 it's no wonder vetting is just a significant 7 problem, if this is what -- if this was an 8 indication of the files of those yet to be 9 vetted or those in the midst of being vetted. 10 He said, "These aren't those. 11 They're over there," and he pointed to the 12 area in which he later said Beth Nolan sat, 13 and I made some comment about, well, then 14 what are these, and he just shook his head 15 and never told me what they were. 16 Q What did you take the shaking of 17 the head to mean? 18 A Just like, oh, don't ask me, that 19 kind of thing. It was just frustrated. 20 Q Did the files that he was shaking 21 his head about look physically like the other 22 files that were part of the vetting process? 180 1 A Yeah, they did -- oh no, vetting, 2 no, not at all like the vetting ones based on 3 what I later saw with Bobby Inman and a few 4 other candidates that were being vetted 5 during the -- it wasn't the attorney general 6 vetting. It was vetting for one of the 7 Supreme Court -- two of the Supreme Court 8 justice nominees, Steven -- 9 MS. SHAPIRO: I just want to 10 caution the witness not to mention the names 11 of vetting candidates, administration vetting 12 candidates. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Why? 14 MS. SHAPIRO: Because it's not 15 relevant and there are privacy issues and the 16 entire motion, I think, regarding that issue. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not asking what's 18 in the files. 19 MS. SHAPIRO: The names are 20 themselves something that we would -- 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me back up and 22 we'll undoubtedly have to argue about that. 181 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q In terms of the files that he 3 pointed to and shook his head, did you 4 understand those files to be FBI files? 5 A At the time? 6 Q Yes. 7 A At the time I don't think so. At 8 the time I didn't know what I was seeing. 9 Q Did you subsequently understand 10 those files to concern FBI files? 11 A Well, it was the same stacks, 12 literally, of files with very little 13 exception or at least not discernible 14 exception that Betsy Pond later referred to 15 as FBI files many months later. 16 Q She pointed to those files and said 17 those are FBI files? 18 A Mm-hmm. That was during the 19 conversation in which she identified them, 20 yes. 21 Q Was that during the same 22 conversation where she told you she was 182 1 loading them on to computers? 2 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 3 THE WITNESS: No, that was a 4 separate conversation. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Now, were there files strewn all 7 over Kennedy's office when you would go in 8 there? 9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Form. 10 THE WITNESS: No. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Where were these files located that 13 he was shaking his head about? 14 A Everywhere in stacks. 15 Q What do you mean by "everywhere"? 16 A He had a large office, and Old EOB 17 offices are rather roomy, and they were 18 everywhere. You had to -- there are -- the 19 desk was in the middle of the office facing 20 the doorway in a sense across from the mantel 21 and the fireplace surround, and I don't 22 recall his desk being significantly cluttered 183 1 one way or another. It was not like Vince's 2 desk, certainly, or like Bernie's desk, but 3 it looked like a work desk. But the stacks 4 were what caught one's eye. 5 Q Were they stacked up on a table? 6 A Yes, and on the floor, and I didn't 7 know how they didn't fall. 8 Q How high were the stacks? 9 A Relatively high. For instance, I 10 would stand in front of his desk when I would 11 speak to him, and some of the files were hip 12 high. I'm five-eight and he's five-ten, so 13 do the math. 14 Q How many stacks were there at any 15 given point in time, generally? 16 A I never counted them. A lot. My 17 impression of Bill Kennedy's office from that 18 day forward never changed, and that was that 19 he was the keeper of more files than I'd ever 20 seen in my life, which is why when the FBI 21 issue -- excuse me, FBI file issue became a 22 public issue I was surprised at the number 184 1 that seemed to be associated with the file 2 issue because it seemed so very many more 3 than 900, if those in fact were the FBI 4 files. 5 Q In other words, what you saw in 6 Kennedy's office when you worked in the White 7 House counsel's office were many more than 8 the 900 that were reported to have been the 9 FBI files that came over to The White House? 10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Form. 11 THE WITNESS: That was my 12 impression. I didn't count them but it 13 seemed so to me. 14 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Mr. Klayman, is 15 this a good time for a mid-afternoon break? 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Just a few more 17 questions and then we can take one. Do you 18 want to take a nap? 19 THE WITNESS: Is that offer open to 20 all of us? Well, he's heard all this before. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: We need a little 22 levity. 185 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Were there files other than what 3 you saw in Mr. Kennedy's office that you 4 thought were FBI files? I'm not talking 5 about those you saw on Ms. Pond's desk or 6 under Mr. Kennedy's arm when he was talking 7 to Ms. Scott, but did you ever see other 8 files around The White House that in 9 retrospect looked like the files that you 10 have identified as FBI files? 11 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 12 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Other than those 13 already described. 14 THE WITNESS: We've distributed 15 everything, have we not? 16 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Yes. 17 THE WITNESS: I believe I've been 18 fully -- to the best of my knowledge, I've 19 covered fully the areas in which I think I 20 saw these same files, yes. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Did you ever see the files in 186 1 offices other than Mr. Foster's safe in 2 Mr. Nussbaum's office, Mr. Kennedy's office, 3 Ms. Pond's desk, under the arms of 4 Mr. Kennedy, and Mr. Livingstone's office? 5 MR. MAZUR: I object to the form of 6 the question. 7 Q Was there any other place that you 8 saw files that in retrospect you believe were 9 FBI files? 10 A Did you say in Mr. Nussbaum's 11 office? 12 MR. ZACCAGNINI: The safe. 13 THE WITNESS: Vince Foster's safe 14 in Mr. Nussbaum's office. I'm sorry. Did 15 you mention Mr. Livingstone's office? 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Yes. Mr. Livingstone's office, 18 Mr. Foster's office, Mr. Foster's safe in 19 Mr. Nussbaum's office, Mr. Kennedy's office, 20 Ms. Pond's desk and under the arm of 21 Mr. Kennedy when he was talking to Ms. Scott. 22 A And you said Vince Foster's desk, 187 1 didn't you? 2 Q Right. 3 A I don't believe I saw them at any 4 other time. 5 Q Or in any other place? 6 A No, that's what I meant. Sorry. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: We can take a break 8 here. 9 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off video 10 record at 3:06. 11 (Recess) 12 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on 13 video record at 3:26. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Ms. Tripp, you stated that you saw 16 these stacks of files in Mr. Kennedy's office 17 and you had more than one occasion to be in 18 that office. Roughly speaking, how many 19 occasions were you in his office, just 20 roughly? 21 A Yeah, easily ten. 22 Q And the times that you came in to 188 1 talk about personnel matters with certain 2 individuals, that was what, two or three? 3 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 4 THE WITNESS: Issues pertaining to 5 White House business of some nature would 6 have been at least three. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q When did you become aware that some 9 of the files that you had seen in that office 10 were Republican files such as Congressman 11 Clinger? 12 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 13 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I don't believe 14 for the record, Mr. Klayman, she was ever 15 aware that they were Republican files. She 16 recognized some names without knowledge of 17 particular parties. I don't mean to suggest 18 her testimony but I want to be clear on the 19 record. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Please don't. 21 THE WITNESS: Just to clarify that 22 the names with which I was familiar were 189 1 names that I had known in the Bush White 2 House, so to the extent that those folks were 3 Republicans, that may have been a leap for 4 me. I know I was part of the Bush 5 Administration and I was not a Republican. 6 So maybe we shouldn't characterize them as 7 Republican files. Maybe I've been remiss in 8 referring to them that way. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q You understand that Congressman 11 Clinger is a Republican? 12 A Yes, I understand that. 13 Q When did it hit you that you had 14 seen files from the Bush White House? Was it 15 when you were in the office or after you 16 left? 17 A No, I knew that simultaneously. 18 That was instantly recognizable to me. 19 Q And did you see the names of 20 individuals that were not holdover employees? 21 A Yes. Yes. In fact -- 22 Q Roughly how many -- I'm sorry. 190 1 A In Bill Kennedy's office I don't 2 recall seeing holdover names at all. The 3 only holdover names that I recall with any 4 level of specificity would be Chris Emory and 5 Billy Dale and again Dale only the last name. 6 Q In all the times you were in Bill 7 Kennedy's office, how many files did you take 8 note of in terms of the names on files, just 9 roughly speaking? Hundreds? 10 A Oh, no. No, not anywhere near. 11 Handfuls. 12 Q How many handfuls? 13 A It was the tops of stacks, so 14 however many happened to be in my radius of 15 vision. No, I didn't see -- there may well 16 have been hundreds in stacks, but I only saw 17 the top one. 18 Q So when you say "handfuls" how many 19 handfuls roughly? 20 A I hate having to qualify something. 21 MR. ZACCAGNINI: If you cannot 22 quantify properly, then don't. 191 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q You can give me an estimate. This 3 is discovery. 4 A I know, but I think if you're 5 giving an estimate you should at least be 6 somewhat -- you should be in the ballpark. 7 Q This evidence will have to be ruled 8 upon before it is used at trial, so you can 9 give me an estimate roughly speaking. 10 MR. ZACCAGNINI: If you have any 11 basis of knowledge from which to provide an 12 estimate, go ahead. If you can't, then 13 don't. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: I'd appreciate it, 15 Mr. Zaccagnini. I know you're trying to be 16 "helpful," but don't try to put words in the 17 witness' mouth. 18 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Mr. Klayman, I'll 19 instruct my client as I deem appropriate. 20 I've instructed her not to speculate on your 21 answer. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I'm asking for 192 1 an estimate. 2 MR. ZACCAGNINI: She's indicated 3 she cannot provide you an estimate. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: She did not indicate 5 that, and please certify this. 6 THE WITNESS: Let me just say for 7 the record that I take this oath very 8 seriously and I have put everything in my 9 life on the line for the ability to tell the 10 truth under oath. To me to speculate right 11 now under oath is something I'm just not 12 comfortable with. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q You said handfuls. Is it two or 15 three handfuls, four handfuls? What are we 16 talking about, tens of files? 17 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Can you answer the 18 question, Mrs. Tripp? 19 THE WITNESS: I can't. 20 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Next question. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Zaccagnini, if 22 you keep interjecting like that I'm going to 193 1 ask the court tomorrow to pose the questions 2 in court and I'm going to ask that Ms. Tripp 3 be there at the time. 4 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Well, she's not 5 available -- 6 MR. KLAYMAN: The please do not 7 intercede in my questioning. 8 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I will when I 9 believe it's appropriate for me to protect my 10 client's interests, Mr. Klayman. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: We have a myriad of 12 discussions in court orders with regard to 13 speaking objections which give answers to the 14 witness. That is not appropriate. 15 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I was not giving 16 answers to the witness. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: That is no protecting 18 the witness. That's impeding the deposition. 19 MR. ZACCAGNINI: She indicated she 20 could not answer the question. I believe 21 you're badgering the witness, Mr. Klayman, 22 move on. 194 1 MR. KLAYMAN: No, I'm not badgering 2 the witness. I'm taking issue with you. 3 MR. ZACCAGNINI: The witness has 4 indicated that she cannot answer the question 5 and she will not answer the question because 6 she cannot provide an estimate. She has no 7 basis of knowledge. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: You've asserted that 9 to her. 10 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I said if you have 11 a basis of knowledge. I was not suggesting 12 the answer. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Do you want to go out 14 and talk for a few minutes? 15 MR. ZACCAGNINI: No, I'm fine. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: All right. Well, 17 that's fine. Certify it. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Did you see the names of holdover 20 employees when you were in Kennedy's office 21 on those files? 22 A I don't recall seeing holdover 195 1 names specifically. My recollection is that 2 there may have been one name which escapes me 3 at the moment which was clearly a holdover, 4 and I think, if I could refresh my memory by 5 revisiting the list that I saw published in 6 the print media, I think once again I may be 7 able to pick out that name, but at this point 8 in time, no. I didn't ever make a note of 9 the names and never committed to memory the 10 names. 11 I do know that when I revisited the 12 published list in the newspaper and actually 13 went over it line by line it helped me 14 remember those names that I had seen because 15 I remember saying, "I saw those." 16 Q Now, in terms of the names that you 17 saw that were not holdovers, did you see more 18 than five from the Bush White House? 19 A Yes. 20 Q More than ten? 21 A I don't know. I don't know. It 22 was several. I wish I could be more specific 196 1 for you, but honestly under oath I'm loathe 2 to do that when I am not able to quantify. 3 Q Did you see any names of 4 individuals that you knew to be appointments 5 or proposed appointments to the Clinton 6 administration? 7 A No, I know I saw no such names. 8 Q I show you what I'll ask the court 9 reporter to mark as Exhibit 7. 10 A Excuse me. Unless it's possible 11 that they were considering appointing former 12 Bush officials. I mean, I -- 13 Q Do you know of any that were 14 appointed to anything? 15 A No. 16 Q You say that you had a conversation 17 with Bobby Inman at some point? 18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 19 THE WITNESS: No, I did not have a 20 conversation with Bobby Inman. Actually, I 21 did but that's not what I said. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 197 1 Q What did you say? 2 A I said it was during his vetting 3 process that I became familiar with and then 4 began noticing, paying more attention to 5 vetting files than I had in previous months. 6 Q What was it about his vetting 7 process that caused you to do that, if 8 anything? 9 MS. SHAPIRO: I need to stop at 10 this point because we are not going to permit 11 testimony about somebody's vetting. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not asking that 13 question. 14 MS. SHAPIRO: I just want to make 15 it clear so that that's not the answer that 16 we get. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q You can respond. 19 A Well, I will say that his file or 20 his -- the records which The White House used 21 in vetting Mr. Inman were in plain view 22 frequently during that time period up till 198 1 and including his statement to the media in 2 which he, I believe, if I recall correctly, 3 withdrew his nomination or withdrew his name 4 from consideration. And so, to the extent 5 that I became more familiar with vetting 6 files, that was one case. There were others. 7 Q Well, let me just ask you. What do 8 you mean by "plain view"? 9 A Oh, on Deb Gorham's desk. I 10 believe at that time, if I'm not mistaken, 11 Joel Kline was now the deputy counsel and 12 prior to that time -- on Joel Kline's desk, 13 I'm sorry -- and then prior to that time 14 during other vetting of senior appointees, 15 and I mean very senior, during Vince Foster's 16 lifetime there were other such vetting files 17 that were frequently in our office. 18 Q In whose office? 19 A The counsel office suite. 20 Q Was it a practice to leave vetting 21 files out in the open where people could see 22 them on desks? 199 1 A No, I don't think that's the case 2 at all. I think we were in very close 3 quarters, very close quarters. Have you been 4 in the counsel's office suite? 5 Q Not yet. We'll be asking to do 6 that shortly. 7 A Well, then, maybe it will give you 8 a better understanding of what I mean by 9 "close quarters." I didn't notice any 10 particular lackadaisical attitude about these 11 files at all. I do think, though, that there 12 was a space problem, and if someone 13 inadvertently or just in passing put 14 something on a desk or left it out in the 15 open, it was certainly not for public view 16 and would not have been. 17 We were very careful, generally 18 speaking, and I don't think we were 19 considered the support staff in any way to be 20 -- certainly didn't have a need to know but 21 we were not considered threatening in any 22 way. 200 1 Q Mr. Kennedy's office, for instance, 2 where you saw these stacks of files, did they 3 look like -- I forgot the name of the word, 4 but there's stacks coming out of the floor 5 all over the place. Is that the impression 6 it had when you'd walk in there? 7 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q You can respond. 10 A On the floor stacks and on tables 11 stacks. 12 Q Like icicles coming up from the 13 ground? 14 A Is that stalagmites or stalactites? 15 Q I forgot it. You learn that in 16 grade school. 17 A They didn't taper at the ends but 18 other than that -- 19 Q And you literally had to navigate 20 your way through them? 21 A There was an opening between his 22 desk and the fireplace surround that was 201 1 free, and the rest of it was pretty much 2 stacks. 3 Q Stalactites and stalagmites? 4 A I guess, yes. 5 Q Were those put away at night, those 6 files, do you know? 7 A Where would you put all those files 8 at night? I don't understand. I'm not 9 making myself plain. 10 Q The answer's no? 11 A Well, unless one of those hand 12 trucks came by, yes, the answer's no. 13 Q Was Mr. Kennedy's office locked at 14 night? 15 A I don't know. 16 Q Was there a procedure that you know 17 of to lock the offices of Mr. Kennedy or 18 Mr. Foster or anyone in that suite? 19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 20 MR. MAZUR: Objection to form. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q You can respond. 202 1 A Remember that that wasn't in the 2 same suite. Mr. Kennedy's office was located 3 on -- I'm sorry, I can't remember the floor 4 now but in the Old Executive Office Building 5 and my experience in the -- 6 Q He was not in the same suite with 7 Mr. Nussbaum and Mr. Foster? 8 A No, they were in the West Wing of 9 The White House proper. 10 Q And those offices were adjacent? 11 A Yes, those two were. 12 Q And you sat outside those offices? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Along with Ms. Gorham and Ms. Pond? 15 A No. Ms. Pond was there when I got 16 there, as was Ms. Gorham. 17 Q But you all sat outside those 18 offices? 19 A We did. 20 Q Do you know of any procedure to 21 lock Mr. Kennedy's office at night? 22 A My experience, there was a time 203 1 when I was removed from the West Wing, May of 2 '94, and housed in the counsel's office of 3 the Old Executive Office Building while I was 4 conducting my job search, at which time I was 5 often there at "close of business" and often 6 close of business in The White House can be 7 any hour of the night, but I did observe 8 that, as had been the case in the previous 9 administration, the doors may have been 10 locked, but there was no additional secured 11 mechanism to secure the office as there had 12 been in the West Wing. 13 Q Do you know who had keys to 14 Mr. Kennedy's office? 15 A I don't know, other than Betsy Pond 16 and Bill Kennedy. I have no firsthand 17 knowledge about anyone else within that suite 18 because it was a suite. It was a door which 19 opened up into an anteroom where Betsy Pond 20 sat and where Deb Gorham had sat previously, 21 same desk, then Bill Kennedy's office off of 22 that and other, smaller offices off that same 204 1 reception area. 2 Q Who had keys to the office of Vince 3 Foster and Bernie Nussbuam when you were in 4 The White House counsel's office? 5 A I'm sorry. Who had keys to the 6 main door of the counsel's office in the West 7 Wing; is that the question? 8 Q Let's start with that. 9 A I did, Vince, Bernie, Betsy, 10 Deborah, and I'm not sure if Tom Castleton 11 did, and it's possible that later our 12 volunteers may have. 13 Q How about their own proper offices? 14 Who had keys to Bernie Nussbuam's office? 15 A I can't, as we sit here today, 16 remember if Bernie's office had a lock. I do 17 know that Vince's office didn't have a lock 18 until one was installed after his death. 19 Q How soon after his death was it 20 installed? 21 A Relatively soon. 22 Q Within days? 205 1 A I remember a very short period 2 because it had been guarded for some time by 3 uniformed and protective detail and then a 4 lock was put on so that that wouldn't be 5 necessary. 6 Q You previously testified with 7 regard to Vince Foster's safe in Bernie 8 Nussbuam's office. Is there anyone else 9 other than the persons you mentioned who had 10 the combination to that safe? 11 A I don't believe so. 12 Q And who were those persons, again? 13 A Excuse me. I should caveat that. 14 I believe Steve Neuwirth and Cliff Sloan may 15 have had the combination. 16 Q And who in addition to those two 17 individuals? 18 A The ones I have already listed more 19 than once. Do it again? 20 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Sure, one more 21 time. 22 THE WITNESS: Vince Foster, Betsy 206 1 Pond, Deborah Gorham, myself, Linda Tripp, 2 Tony Marceca, and I believe Craig 3 Livingstone. I don't know about the others. 4 And Bernie, I'm sure, had the combination, 5 but, as I've stated repeatedly, he couldn't 6 open it. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Showing you what I'll 8 ask the court reporter to mark as Exhibit 7. 9 This is a list that has been produced with 10 regard to the FBI files that we know of at 11 this time are subject to this case. It was 12 this list that was published in The 13 Washington Times. 14 (Tripp Deposition Exhibit No. 7 15 was marked for identification.) 16 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to the 17 characterization, which we would take issue 18 with. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Exhibit 7 contains a cover page, 21 Cara Leslie Alexander et al. v. FBI, and it 22 spans Bates number 3122 through and including 207 1 3144. That's how lawyers identify numbered 2 documents, Ms. Tripp. You probably know 3 that. 4 A I've heard that. 5 Q Turning to page 1, that's the third 6 page in, 3122, if you can run down that list 7 and tell me page by page whether this 8 refreshes your recollection as to what 9 documents you saw in William Kennedy's 10 office? 11 A I have a problem. I have no 12 glasses. 13 MR. ZACCAGNINI: One second, 14 Mr. Klayman. Mrs. Tripp didn't bring her 15 reading glasses, Mr. Klayman. She's going to 16 be unable to read these items herself, and if 17 you like we can take a break and I can read 18 them to her or we can do this again when we 19 reconvene. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q I can read them. I'll read them. 22 Carol Blym Aarhus, Hellen Theresa Abdoo, 208 1 Lunelisa Suralta Abiera, Douglas Conrad 2 Adair, David Spears Addington. If any of 3 these names ring a bell, please stop me. 4 Joseph Whitehouse Agin, Frederick Leonard 5 Aheran, Clifford Thomas Alderman, Gary Warren 6 Alrich. 7 Does that name ring a bell of files 8 that you saw? 9 A Not for the reasons that you are 10 asking. 11 Q Any files that you remember that 12 you may have seen. Cara Leslie Alexander, 13 James William Allen, James Newby Allison, 14 Melissa Co Allison, David Ernest Alsobrook, 15 Richard Gus Alvarez, Douglas Randolph 16 Ambrose, Deborah Ann Amend, Joan Marie 17 Amick -- 18 A Stop. That name was one, and it's 19 pronounced "Amend," and I particularly 20 noticed that because I worked for her at one 21 point. 22 Q And what was her position? 209 1 A Special assistant to the President 2 for media relations. 3 Q And who did she report to? 4 A She reported -- she was hired 5 through John Sununu. She reported to the 6 assistant to the President for what was then 7 called media affairs. 8 Q Did she have direct contact with 9 President Bush? 10 A Yes, and she often traveled with 11 the President and his traveling party as 12 well. 13 Q And she was a political appointee? 14 A Yes. 15 Q I. Linus Amonsingii, Ann Elizabeth 16 Anderson, Curtis Willey Anderson, Deborah Rae 17 Anderson, Delores Mary Anderson, Ellis 18 Alfonso Anderson, John David Anderson, 19 Rebecca Lee Anderson, Stanton Dean Anderson, 20 Susan Elizabeth Anderson, Gary John Anores, 21 Edward Appell, Michelle Lorraine Archambault, 22 Kristen Clark Ardleigh, Jacquelyn Grace 210 1 Arends, Linda Lugenia Arey, Jocelyn Argaritt, 2 Rebecca Anne Armendariz, Robert Kelly 3 Armfeld, Patricia Sue Aronsson, Leslye Alene 4 Arshiy, Marion Louise Asare, Hosea Asberry 5 Jr., Mark Anthony Ashley, M. Adel 6 Aslani-Fary, Michael James Astrue, Carolyn 7 Florence Atkinson, Dennis Maurice Atkinson, 8 Lisa Benkert Auel, Barbara McCauley 9 Augustine, Tammy Bloo O-u-p-p-e-r-l-e -- 10 A Well, even I can see that starts 11 with an A. 12 Q Thank you. Susan Marie Auther, and 13 that's a little French pronunciation. Leonid 14 Avrasov, Donald Belton Ayer, Holly Barragan 15 Baca, Charles Edward Bacarisse, Christena 16 Lynne Bach, Christine Anne Baer, Shelton Ray 17 Bagley, Mary Stewa Smallpage Bailey, Shirley 18 Doretha Bailey, Yvonne Gil Baileyy, Barbara 19 Walsh Baker, James Addison Baker, Jane E. 20 Baker, Kathleen Margaret Baker, Sarah Lane 21 Baker, Kyle D. Bakke, Jean Ann Balestrieri, 22 Deborah Balfour, Roy Kenneth Baliles, 211 1 Patricia Kristeen Ballard, Patria Gaspar 2 Balod, Charlie Will Banks, Michael Philip 3 Baril, Kathryn Anne Barletta, Joan Marie 4 Barnes, Karen Lee Barnes, Edward Barnett, 5 Edward Barnett, Jane Elizabeth Barnett, 6 Patricia Ann Barnett, Roosevelt Barnhart, 7 Bart Christopher Barre, Donna Louise Barron, 8 Shanette Michaele Barth, Herbert Henry 9 Bartlett, Gregory David Bassuk. 10 Did you ever see the file of James 11 Baker, the Secretary of State, in 12 Mr. Kennedy's office? 13 A I have no memory of it. I worked 14 for James Baker, so I think I would have made 15 a note. 16 Q You know that's James Addison 17 Baker, that's his name? 18 A I wasn't aware of that, no. 19 Q Paul William Bateman -- 20 A Oh, there is one. Go ahead. 21 Q You recognize Paul William Bateman? 22 A No. Keep going please. I'm sorry. 212 1 Q Charles Edward Bates? 2 A No. 3 Q David Quentin Bates? 4 A Yes. 5 Q You saw David Quentin Bate's file? 6 A Mm-hmm. 7 Q Yes? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Who is David Quentin Bates? 10 A I'm sorry I don't remember his 11 title at the moment. He had come on rather 12 late in the end of the Bush second term. He 13 as I recall was from Texas and seemed to 14 occupy a position of high trust and close 15 relationship with the President and his 16 family. 17 Q Was there anything else you 18 remember about him? 19 A About him? 20 Q Yes. 21 A Well, vaguely what he looked like 22 and that he became a senior participant in 213 1 The White House -- The White House activities 2 toward the end of '92, as it pertained to the 3 office of the chief of staff and the Office 4 of the President -- the President. 5 Q In the Bush Administration? 6 A Yes. 7 Q He wasn't a holdover, was he, in 8 the Clinton Administration? 9 A I don't believe so. I never saw 10 him after that. 11 Q He was a political appointee? 12 A I would say so, yes. 13 Q Lorri Jeanne Bates, Melinda Naumann 14 Bates, Rochelle Heidi Batt, Lisa Marie 15 Battaglia, Frankie Battle, Gayle Bauer, Julia 16 Harmon Baughman, Matthew Scott Baumeyer, Amy 17 Meredith Baumstein, Kathleen Elizabeth Baur, 18 Brian Callaway Baynard, Chester Paul Beach, 19 Eileen Ferne Bean, Jason Frank Beatty, Thomas 20 Luther Becherer, Heather Marie Beckel, Jean 21 Loretta Becker, Jerome David Becker, 22 Catherine Therese Bedard, James Edward Beers, 214 1 Patrick Adam Beers, Kateri Ray Belby, James 2 George Bell, Lillie Mae Bell, Louise Helen 3 Bell, Mariam McKowen Bell, Robert Gregory 4 Bell, Antonio Benedi, Mary Lee Benjamin, 5 Carolyn Claire Berenzy, Eric Berry, Betha 6 Elizabeth Berryman, Rudyy Max Beserra, Anita 7 Carol Bevacqua, James Michael Bieda, 8 Elizabeth Ann Binion, Mary Ursula Binns, 9 Deborah Bird, Danica Bizic, Mark Gustav 10 Bizic. 11 Going to the fourth page, David Lee 12 Black, Judy Ann Black, Barbara Ann Blackburn, 13 Virginia Mae Blackwell, Pearlena Blake, 14 Marion Clifton Blakey, Anthony David 15 Blankley, Suzette A. Blodgett, Gary Robert 16 Blumenthal, Elizabeth Iden Board, George 17 Herbert Bohrer, Joshua Brester Bolten, 18 Carolina Orgeira Bonino, Deborah Anita 19 Boozen, Susan Aileen Borchard, Gladys Rebecca 20 Bostick, Sharon Marie Botwin, James Bowen, 21 Janet Virginia Bowen, Ann Rosemary Bracken, 22 Frank Alexander Brackene, Margaret Louise 215 1 Brackney, Ellen Lorraine Bradley, James Scott 2 Brady, Katherine Chrystie Brady, Phillip 3 Donley Brady, Barnaby Lair Brasseux. 4 Was there a Mr. Brasseux who worked 5 in The White House Travel Office that you 6 know of? 7 A I didn't know many of their last 8 names. My interaction with them was all on a 9 first-name basis, so other than Billy Dale I 10 knew them as Mo and Bob and so I really can't 11 tell you for sure, and I don't remember from 12 press reports. 13 Q I read you the name of a James 14 Brady. Was that The White House press 15 secretary that was shot? 16 A I don't know. 17 Q Harleen Marie Breaux, Richard 18 Carroll Breeden, Stacey Lynn Breen, Carl Ray 19 Breining, Bettina Christina Brewa, Marjorie 20 Anne Bridgman, Terheran James Brighthaupt, 21 Cecil Luther Briscoe, James Elmore Junior 22 Briscoe, Raymond Joseph Briscuso, Ann Cathey 216 1 Brock, Crystal Lynn Brooks, John Henry 2 Brooks, Sylvena Carter Brooks -- 3 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Mr. Klayman, can 4 you hold on one second, please? 5 THE WITNESS: I think Ann Brock was 6 one of them. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Who was Ann Brock? 9 A Ann Brock, I think, was the 10 scheduler to Mrs. Bush. 11 Q A political appointee? 12 A Definitely. 13 Q Did you know her in the Bush White 14 House? 15 A I did. 16 Q And what were her duties and 17 responsibilities as scheduling? 18 A I believe she was responsible for 19 short and long-range scheduling of 20 Mrs. Bush's calendar to ensure that it 21 coincided with the President's long-range 22 calendar as well as other familial 217 1 obligations they had for travel. So she was 2 the scheduler under Mrs. Bush's chief of 3 staff, Susan Porter Rose, I believe. 4 THE WITNESS: Could you mark that 5 one for me? 6 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Oh, I'm sorry. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Crystal Lynne Brooks, John Henry 9 Brooks, Sylvana Carter Brooks, Michelle Marie 10 Brott, Cornell Marshall Brown, Emmett 11 Robinson Brown, Ennis Waldon Brown, Gregory 12 Payne Brown, James Brown. 13 A Don't think I saw that one. 14 Q And the band of renowneds. Ronald 15 James Brown, Steven Lee Brown, Susan Karen 16 Brown, Sara Anne Browne, Patricia Mack Bryan, 17 Chester Corbett Bryant, Junior, Todd Glen 18 Buchholtz, Catherine Eleanor Bull, Katyia 19 Bullock, Jean Marie Bunton, Mary Lee Birch, 20 Rita Daiva Bureika, Mary Jane Burgess, Janice 21 Lee Burneister, Nealton J. Burnham, Francine 22 Maria Burns, Michael Joseph Busch, Sandra Kay 218 1 Bushue, Bruce Irving Bustard, Judith Ann 2 Butler, Lisa Butler, Renea Annette Butler, 3 Diane Burch Butterfield, William Joseph 4 Butterfield, Jay Scott Bybee, Phyllis 5 McCommons Burn, Margaret M. Caccia, William 6 Burns Caldwell, Lane Philese Calhoun, 7 Nicholas E. Calio, Lorraine R. Camarano, 8 Martha Reed Cammack, Frances Loretta 9 Campbell, Joyce Dianne Campbell, Joyce Diane 10 Campbell, Sarah Louise Campbell, Victoria 11 Zima Campbell, Shirley Anne Campolieto, Joes 12 (Jose) Julio Canales, William James Canary? 13 A Yeah, that one. 14 Q You saw that file in Kennedy's 15 office? 16 A Yes, I remember seeing the last 17 names, and I don't recall the William James 18 Canary. I remember William Canary, because I 19 knew a Bill Canary in the Bush White House. 20 Q Who was Bill Canary? 21 A Coincidentally, he was friends with 22 Deb Amand, whose name I had also seen. 219 1 Q What was Bill Canary's job? 2 A I don't remember his title. It 3 was -- 4 Q Do you remember what he did? 5 A He was a commissioned officer to 6 the President, but I'm not sure in what 7 capacity, political director or public 8 liaison, one of the liaisons in the old EOB. 9 Q A political appointee? 10 A Yes. 11 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to the term 12 political appointee. Make that a standing 13 objection. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Do you know what a political 16 appointee is? 17 A I understood the question to mean, 18 was he appointed by the President as a 19 commissioned officer in this regard. That's 20 how I'm referring to it. 21 Q You know the difference between a 22 political employee and a civil service 220 1 employee, correct? 2 A I most certainly do. He was not a 3 civil servant appointee. He was not part of 4 the career civil service. He was, in fact, 5 commissioned, as I recall -- I believe I have 6 seen his framed commission in his office. I 7 just can't at the moment remember which 8 office that was. 9 Q He wasn't a holdover in the Clinton 10 White House; was he? 11 A I never saw him there. 12 Q Daniel Lee Carlson, Kathleen 13 Shaughnessy Carlson, Nicol Leigh Carlson, 14 Henry Alan Carmack, Ann Mildred Carmichael, 15 Kelly Hawkins Carnes, David Michael Carney, 16 Howard Albion Carney, Lucy Cole Carney, 17 Andrew Michael Carpendale, Judith Lee 18 Carpenter, Margaret Van Wagenen Carpenter, 19 Bobby Gene Carr, Christopher Steven Carr, 20 Edwin George Carr, Michael Damon Carr, Sally 21 Wenner Carr, John Gerald Carriere, Flora 22 Jenice Carroll, Jeremy Ethridge Caroll, Mary 221 1 Kate Carol, Rita Revel Carol, Sally Claude 2 Carol, Allison Webb Carter, Russell Edward 3 Carter, Tommy Jackson Carter, James Carville. 4 You ever hear of James Carville? 5 A Yes. Bayni Garica Casanova, 6 Erlinda Elizabeth Casey, Sheryll Denise 7 Cashin, Daniel Anthony Casse, Ann Marie 8 Casiagnetti, Anna Sanabria Casiflo, Shara Ann 9 Castle, Joseph Nelson Cate, Roland Harrison 10 Caton, Ann Marie Catalini, George Gray 11 Claudill, Junior, Julian Attaway Cave, Sarah 12 Joan Cavendish, Carolyn Marie Cawley, Gregory 13 Philip Celemtano, Clarissa Cerda, Joseph 14 Walter Cerrell, Dolores Lumina Chacon, Alyson 15 Hillary Chadwick. 16 Going to page 7: Richard Lee 17 Chambers, Julia Eden Chamovitz, Florence 18 Champagne, Florence Champagne, Alfred 19 Wei-Kaung Chang, Jennifer Chang, James 20 Daniels Chapman, John Chanbrook Chapman, 21 Robert Thomas Chapman, Thomas Leo Chappelear, 22 Logan Stanley Chappell, Peter Farham Charles, 222 1 Robert Bruce Charles, Tyron Leon Chase, 2 Keredith Ferguson Chen, Volunteers in Youth, 3 Chesapeake, Mary Elizabeth Child, Douglas 4 Wayne Chirdon, Jill Melissa Codorov, Gloria 5 Jean Chonka, Teressa Marie Christoff, 6 Katherine Clare Chumachenko, Marjorie Heins 7 Ciarlante, James William Cicconi, Aida Marie 8 Cipriani, Sharon Elizabeth Clark, Paul Clark, 9 Ellizabeth Hope Clayton, Catherine Cleale, 10 Philip Patrick Cleary, John Anthony Cline, 11 Mary Betha Cobbs, William Nathaniel Cob, 12 Lawanda Anntinette Cobey, Terri Lynnette 13 Cobey, Jane Rusk Cocking, Scott Andrew 14 Caffina, Benedict Simms Cohen, Karen Joyce 15 Cohn, Noah Phillip Cohrssen, Clifford William 16 Colby, Lisa Tower Caldwell, Herbert Holt 17 Coleman. 18 Going to page 8: Christopher David 19 Colley, Adam Reed Colick, Gail Aredon 20 Collins, Laura Jean Collins, Paul Joseph 21 Junior Collins, Tracy Regene Collins, 22 Elizabeth Margaret Compton, Jenny Marie 223 1 Condlin, Karen Ann Connell, Patricia Lynn 2 Conrad, David Lawrence Cook, Michelle Dianne 3 Cook, Julie Cook, B. Jay Cooper, Janet Felton 4 Cooper, Marshall Cooper, Susan Ann Cornick, 5 Michelle Lynn Coster, Julia Marie Cot, 6 Catherine Crowley Coughlin, Jack L. 7 Courtemanche, Pamela Jean Covington, Carl 8 David Covitz, Emma Jean Cox, Patricia Helen 9 Cox, Susan Alpert Coyle, Charlene C. Cosart, 10 Lynn Allison Crabal, Bernard James Craig, 11 Gravin Winslow Craig, Judy A. D. Craig, Kelly 12 Ann Crawford, Danny Lee Crippen, Caroline 13 Madden Critchfield, Traci Michelle Critton, 14 Francez Gabrey Croft, Carol Catherine 15 Cronheim, Stephanie Marguerite Cross, Janet 16 Shaw Crouse, Matthew Elton Crow, Shelly Lynn 17 Crow, Amanda Faith Crumly, Allison Wheatland 18 Cryor, Laszlo Thomas Csorba. 19 MS. SHAPIRO: Can we turn on these 20 lights, perhaps? It's getting difficult to 21 see for the video. Thank you. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 224 1 Q Connie Kay Cudd, Lue Culbreath, Lue 2 Adde Culbreath, Leslee Blair Cullen, Arthur 3 Boggess Culvahouse, Claudia Lynn Cummins, 4 Erin Michelle Cunningham, Carolyn Curiel, 5 Aliese Selma Curley, Betty Williams Currie, , 6 Dorothy Jane Curry, Joseph Fillmore Curseen, 7 Theodore Charles Curtin, Emily Jane Curtis, 8 Janet Flora Curtis, Richard Edward Curtis, 9 Jeffrey Andrew Cushman, Ellen Mary Custer, 10 Jennifer Lee Cutshall, Rachael Ray Cutshall, 11 W. Bowman Cutter, Brian Daniel Daily, Billy 12 Ray Dale. 13 A As I stated, the Dale file I saw 14 was not in Bill Kennedy's office. It was in 15 Vince Foster's office and, then again, in the 16 safe that Vince Foster used. 17 Q Sharon Ruth Dale. Did you know 18 Sharon Ruth Dale? 19 A I'm sorry, no. 20 Q Do you know whether that is a 21 relative of Billy Dale? 22 A I don't know. 225 1 Q John Joseph Daley, Alison Michelle 2 Daly, Delores Margot Daly, John Augustine 3 Daly, David T. Dam, Julie Mead Damgard, 4 Kristin Ann Demico, Timothy Edward Dana, 5 Stephanie Clune Dance, Justine Dandrea, 6 Brenda Joyce Daniels, Hilliard Daniels, 7 Hilliard Daniels, Junior, John David 8 Dannenbeck, Steven Ira Danzansky, Douglas 9 Alexander Davidson, Arlene Poindexter Davis, 10 Carrie Lou Davis, Ethel Anna Davis, James 11 Davis. 12 Going to page 10: Mark William 13 Davis, Patrick Joseph Davis, Porter Manvel 14 Davis, Reba Holland Davis, Samuel Davis, 15 William Hal Davis, Calvin Dawkins, Brett 16 Brewer Dawson, Susan Bradshaw Dawson, 17 Benjamin Paul Dean, Bernice Elizabeth Dean, 18 Donald Ray Dean, James AFL/CIO Retirees 19 Deaton, Joan Chenery Decain, Sarah Gwathmey 20 DeCamp, Kris Marie Dee, William Edward Deese, 21 Senior, Linda Susan Dehart, Michael Eric 22 Dehart, Stacey Kay Del Grosso, Dorothy Rhea 226 1 Dillingner, David Franklin Demerest, Susan 2 Russell Denniston, Mary Kathryn Dewhirst, 3 Julia Lynne Diaz, Francis Joseph Dietz, 4 Kristin Marie Dietz, William Donald Dietz, 5 Richard William Diguiseppe, Daniel Clifford 6 Diller, Diana Elizabeth Dillon, Elma Sara 7 Dirolf, Carpenters Seattle North District 8 Council, Viola Elizabeth Dixon, Faith Elaine 9 Doffermyre, Jiamota Mae Doggett, Ellen B. 10 Doherty, Anthony Rossi Dolan, Marla Murphy 11 Donahue, Helen Colle Donaldson, Frank Joseph 12 Donatelli, Charles Anthony Donovan, Teresa 13 Ann Donovan, Peggy Ann Dooley. 14 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Mr. Klayman, may I 15 interrupt right there? Mrs. Tripp needs to 16 take a restroom break. 17 THE WITNESS: It's not a restroom 18 break. It just feels like enough already 19 with these names. I'm getting dizzy. Can 20 you ask me other questions, and we can come 21 back to this another day? 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, this is 227 1 important. 2 THE WITNESS: I know, but I'm 3 feeling like -- you're losing me. I'm not 4 focusing. It's too many names. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Why don't we take a 2 6 minute break? 7 THE WITNESS: I think you'd rather 8 I be accurate, correct? 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, it's important 10 that we get these names at this point. Why 11 don't we take a five-minute break? 12 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off 13 video record at 4:15. 14 (Recess) 15 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on 16 video record at 4:39. 17 THE WITNESS: Mr. Klayman, might I 18 just say, that with difficulty I've read 19 page 11, so you can skip page 11 and go 20 to 12, if you care to. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Let me ask you this. We were ready 228 1 to start in on page 11, and you said you were 2 tiring of this technique that was caused 3 because you inadvertently forgot your reading 4 glasses. Are you able to look at the various 5 pages and at least for now tell me whether 6 you see any names of individuals' whose files 7 you saw? Do the best you can and come back 8 to it later when you have your reading 9 glasses. 10 A So you'd like to me to review the 11 remainder of this document? 12 Q Yes, do the best you can. I 13 understand you don't have your reading 14 glasses. 15 A Yeah, okay. 16 Q Did you see a name you recognize? 17 A Not just at that moment, no. I 18 recognized it, but didn't see it that day. 19 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Are you finished 20 reviewing the list, Mrs. Tripp? 21 THE WITNESS: Should I go back and 22 look? 229 1 MR. ZACCAGNINI: If you want to go 2 back to those names, go ahead. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Having had a chance to review that 5 as best you could without your reading 6 glasses, stipulating that, like me, you're 7 far-sighted, as well as perhaps nearsighted, 8 were you able to find any other names that 9 you recognized? 10 A I'm not going to stipulate to the 11 first statement, and I found some, yes, 12 actually. On page 14, Terry Warren Good. 13 Q Terry Warren Good? 14 A Correct. 15 Q Who is Terry Warren Good? 16 A He was an employee in office of 17 records. I believe he had been there through 18 other administrations. He was someone with 19 whom I had relatively frequent contact in the 20 previous administration. 21 Q Is he a political appointee? 22 A No, he is not, or let me correct. 230 1 He was not at that time. I don't know if he 2 is now. 3 Q Let me just stop you here. Are you 4 aware that Terry Good has testified in this 5 lawsuit? 6 A I think I read a press report at 7 some point, but I don't know that I recall 8 his testimony. 9 Q Do you recollect reading that he 10 was asked to call up information about you 11 from his record keeping system in the Office 12 of Records Management? 13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Form. 14 THE WITNESS: I remember reading 15 that records management had been approached 16 by someone at The White House on several 17 names, including mine, early this year, yes. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Do the names Kathleen Willey and 20 Monica Lewinsky ring a bell as well? 21 A Well, it was definitely one of the 22 two, if not both. 231 1 Q Do you remember reading as to 2 whether or not it was The White House counsel 3 that asked Mr. Good to call up your file? 4 A I don't remember. I just remember 5 it was someone in the complex. 6 Q Do you have any information about 7 this incident, other than what you read? 8 A No. 9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Have you inquired about it with 12 anyone? 13 A Have I? 14 Q Yeah. 15 A I don't know if this -- 16 MR. ZACCAGNINI: One moment, 17 please. 18 (Counsel conferred with witness) 19 MR. ZACCAGNINI: You can answer. 20 THE WITNESS: I've spoken at length 21 with my attorneys about that. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 232 1 Q Have you spoken about this with 2 Mr. Good or anybody in the Office of Records 3 Management currently? 4 A No. 5 Q Anyone other than your attorneys 6 have you spoken about this issue? 7 A I don't have a specific 8 recollection of speaking about this 9 particular issue with anyone, other than my 10 attorneys. Is it possible that I had a 11 conversation about an article that I read 12 concerning Terry Good's testimony? It's 13 possible. Nothing that stands out. 14 Q Let's go to the next name. 15 A Page 16, Maureen Hudson. 16 Q Maureen Hudson? 17 A Mm-hmm. 18 Q H-u-d-s-o-n, Maureen A. 19 A Correct. 20 Q M-a-u-r-e-e-n. Who was Maureen 21 Hudson? 22 A Maureen Hudson was a name that was 233 1 quite familiar to me. She was the individual 2 with whom I initially interviewed when I came 3 over from the Pentagon in 1990 to interview 4 for the job of senior floater in the west 5 wing. 6 Q Senior what? 7 A Floater. 8 Q What was Ms. Hudson's job at the 9 time? 10 A I don't remember her title because 11 I never worked for her directly; however, I 12 fell under her umbrella organization on 13 paper. 14 Q What was an umbrella organization? 15 A Well, it's a part of -- a 16 directorate or some small office in the 17 greater correspondence office, Presidential 18 Letters, something like that. 19 Q Presidential Correspondence? 20 A Yes. 21 Q She was the director of that 22 office? 234 1 A She was. She had been there for, I 2 believe, in excess of 20 years and was 3 someone actually about whom I had heard a 4 great deal over many years through mutual 5 friends. 6 Q Was she a holdover employee into 7 the Clinton White House? 8 A She had been there in excess of 20 9 years, so yes. 10 Q Anyone else? 11 A This name on page 17, if this is in 12 fact the name I recall seeing, and the name 13 that I'm referring to at this moment is 14 Susanna Ann Lugwig. I remember seeing a file 15 that made me wonder why they had the head 16 operator's file, and I remember thinking, 17 either at that point or later, that she had 18 changed her name. I think she had gotten 19 married, or divorced or something and had 20 changed her name, either to Lugwig or from 21 Lugwig to something else, and so I remember 22 that name. I'm now not completely sure that 235 1 it was the same name, but that's the name 2 that you asked me to refresh my memory. 3 Q What was her position at the time? 4 A I believe she was the chief White 5 House operator and had been for many years. 6 Q Telephone operator? 7 A Correct. 8 Q Was she a holdover? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Any other names? 11 A There was one other name that I 12 thought that I had seen in Bill Kennedy's 13 office that I don't see on this list. 14 Q Who was that? 15 A Al Nagy. 16 Q N-a-g-y? 17 A I'm not sure. For some reason, I 18 thought there was a G, G-N, but I guess 19 that's not possible. N-a-g-y, maybe. 20 Q The file was similar to the files 21 that you've previously described as FBI 22 files? 236 1 A Well, as I described, they all 2 shared the same appearance, and I was told 3 they were FBI files. 4 Q How is Nagy spelled? 5 A I'm not sure. 6 Q You think it's N-a-g-y? 7 A I think so. I'm not completely 8 sure. 9 Q What was Al Nagy's position? 10 A He was the telephone man. He was 11 responsible for the phone system that was in 12 the complex over many years, apparently. 13 Q He was a holdover too? 14 A Yes. 15 Q So you had the chief telephone 16 operator, Ms. Ludwig and Mr. Nagy? 17 A Yes. However, as I said, I did not 18 see with any spelling that looked remotely 19 reasonable, his name on this list. 20 Q Did it strike you as peculiar that 21 they had these telephone people involved? 22 A Over time, yeah. 237 1 Q Why was that? 2 A It just seemed unusual to me. I 3 had never met Sue Wood or Sue Ludwig or 4 whatever her name was at that point, but I 5 had spoken to her. She had been extremely 6 helpful on many occasions by phone. Al Nagy 7 I had had considerable interaction with. 8 These people had been there for a great deal 9 of time, and they were well respected within 10 the compound, as were, frankly, most of the 11 support staff who had served admirably in 12 many administrations, and it was just 13 surprising to me to see their names, as it 14 would have been to see my own, which I 15 didn't. 16 Q Any other names that you've 17 recognized, as of today? 18 A Not as of today, no. 19 Q You previously testified that you 20 saw Congressman Clinger's? 21 A Yes. I do not see his name on the 22 list, and again I saw the name Clinger. 238 1 Q C-l-i-n-g-e-r? 2 A Correct. 3 Q Where did you see that? 4 A Also in Bill Kennedy's office. 5 Q Where in the office? 6 A A stack, as I recall. I don't 7 right now, as we sit here, have a complete 8 photographic recollection of where each file 9 was in a stack, but I can tell you that I 10 didn't sift through stacks. I walked around 11 and saw stacks. There didn't appear to be 12 any alphabetical order that I could 13 determine, based on what I saw. 14 Q Did you ever ask Mr. Kennedy how 15 the files got to his office? 16 A I did not. 17 Q Did you ever see your file in his 18 office? 19 A I did not. 20 Q Your name appears on this list; 21 you're aware of that? 22 A I'm aware of that, yes. 239 1 Q Do you know why your file was 2 obtained by The White House counsel's office? 3 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 4 THE WITNESS: I know what I've read 5 in press reports, and I certainly have my own 6 opinion, but I don't know, no. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q What's your own opinion? 9 A Press reports indicated, at least 10 from what I recollect, that my file was 11 requested in June of '94. My security update 12 was not in need of any sort of review at that 13 point for a good solid year after that, at 14 the very least. It was, however, in the 15 aftermath of my raising questions and 16 becoming more and more vocal about concerns I 17 had had with Bruce Lindsey, with Joel Kline, 18 and to an extent with Bernie, and then 19 following his removal, with Lloyd Cutler. So 20 it was following the time that I had been 21 told that my role no longer existed in the 22 counsel's office and, essentially, to find 240 1 other employment within the compound, if 2 possible, or elsewhere if needed. So I was 3 already asked to leave well prior to the date 4 that my file was requested, if press reports 5 are to be believed. 6 Q In essence, it's your belief that 7 your file was requested, because you had 8 somehow been perceived to be a troublemaker? 9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 10 MR. ZACCAGNINI: What's your 11 opinion? 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Just trying to paraphrase it. If 14 you have a better way of expressing it. 15 A I don't know that I have a better 16 way of expressing it. I just think that, for 17 whatever reason, they wanted to review my FBI 18 file, which is separate and apart, of course, 19 from my security file and my personnel file. 20 Q When you saw Clinger's file in 21 Kennedy's office, did you ask him any 22 questions about it? 241 1 A No, I didn't ask him about any 2 specific files. It wouldn't have been 3 appropriate for me to ask him anything about 4 the nature of the files, other than in a 5 generic sort of way, because of the sheer 6 number. 7 Q Approximately, when did you see 8 Clinger's file in Kennedy's office? 9 A I don't recall. I'm sorry. 10 Q 1993? 1994? 11 A I don't know. I think it was 12 later, but I don't know. I can't recall when 13 I saw it. 14 Q Roughly speaking? 15 A I can't. That is as rough as I can 16 get. I remember seeing it. It's not on the 17 list, and I don't know when I saw it. 18 Q When did you leave The White House 19 again? 20 A I left The White House in August 21 of '94. 22 Q Was it shortly before you left The 242 1 White House? 2 A I just don't remember. I had 3 occasion to be in Bill Kennedy's office 4 frequently during my last few months, but 5 quite candidly, I had been in his office on a 6 relatively routine basis from May of '93 7 until my departure. So it's very difficult, 8 given the fact that I saw no particular 9 significance at the time, other than with the 10 possible exception of the Dale Travel Office 11 situation. I had not fantasized a large 12 conspiracy of any kind at that time. 13 Q When you left the Grand Jury on 14 July 29, 1998, and you appeared in the 15 Lewinsky matter, you made a statement, and I 16 quote, "As a result of trying to earn a 17 living, I became aware between 1993 and 1997 18 of actions by high government officials that 19 may have been against the law. For that 20 period of nearly five years, the things I 21 witnessed concerning several different 22 subjects made me feel increasingly fearful 243 1 that this information was dangerous, very 2 dangerous to possess." Is that part of the 3 statement that you made? 4 A That is. 5 Q With regard to that statement, the 6 actions that you saw between 1993 and 1997, 7 at the time that you made this statement on 8 leaving the Grand Jury in July of this year, 9 were you referring in part to matters you had 10 witnessed concerning FBI files? 11 A Yeah, partially, partially. I 12 don't know that files necessarily would have 13 been the most worrisome to me, but, yes, 14 certainly partially. 15 Q What aspect of your whole 16 experience in observing files when you were 17 in The White House and learning about FBI 18 files were you referring to? 19 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 20 the question. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q You can respond. 244 1 A I don't think I understand the 2 question. 3 Q Let me rephrase it. What was it 4 that you meant to convey in a general sense 5 about your experience in The White House with 6 regard to FBI files? 7 A As it pertains to FBI files? 8 Q Yes. 9 A The growing sense that I had over 10 time that political opponents, dissidents, 11 those with opposing viewpoints might perhaps 12 be targeted for retribution for behavior 13 that -- or be targeted for behavior that may 14 or may not be true, based on information that 15 may or may not have been gathered or taken 16 from raw FBI data files. 17 Q At that point in time, July 29th 18 of 1998 on leaving the Grand Jury, were you 19 thinking about what you had seen with regard 20 to FBI files when you were in The White House 21 counsel's office? 22 A Certainly in part, yes. 245 1 Q Did it dawn on you at the time that 2 your having seen Representative Clinger's 3 file, there may have been some significance 4 of that? 5 A Did it dawn on me at the time of my 6 Grand Jury testimony? 7 Q Yes. 8 A No. I mean, this is something that 9 I had, in my opinion, put together for me to 10 my satisfaction well before that. 11 Q What is it that you were able to 12 put together in retrospect about your 13 experience concerning FBI files? 14 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q You can respond. 17 A This is my opinion, so I don't know 18 how relevant my opinion is. 19 Q It's relevant. It's relevant. 20 A It's not legal. 21 Q We'll let the judge decide that. 22 A I believe, based on what I 246 1 observed, that the possibility exists that 2 files were used to uncover information that 3 might have the ability to be used against 4 certain individuals. 5 Q What caused you to believe that? 6 A I think that originally it was the 7 Travel Office, and the way that that 8 occurred, and the follow-on to their firing 9 with what I consider to be completely bogus 10 charges lodged against Billy Dale, and the 11 vehement and just excruciatingly enthusiastic 12 way they were pursuing that regard. That was 13 my first frightening episode in terms of 14 files. 15 I also believe that what I 16 witnessed in terms of Chris Emory's file, if 17 nothing else, portended his removal, if 18 nothing else. Files seemed to appear and 19 people disappeared, and I mean no disrespect. 20 I don't mean that they disappeared. They 21 were removed from The White House after years 22 of what was considered to be honorable 247 1 service, so, yes, it frightened me. 2 Q Did you put in context your having 3 seen Representative Clinger's file in this 4 whole way of thinking? 5 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 6 THE WITNESS: I don't know that it 7 was Representative Clinger's file. I know 8 that it was a file that said Clinger. Again, 9 my view is that it was very likely 10 Representative Clinger's file, and, yes, I 11 believe that it is some sort of opposition 12 research that goes on with the assistance of 13 possibly FBI files to those who would dare 14 question or go after the truth. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q What leads you to believe that it 17 was Representative Clinger's file? 18 A Well, first of all, I really have 19 no basis for that belief, other than my own 20 feeling that I didn't know any other Clinger 21 in the Bush White House, and that the name 22 just snapped out at me in terms of the 248 1 ongoing investigation at the time of 2 Filegate, which had been brought to my 3 attention, ironically enough, by a former 4 Bush official who had contacted me and had at 5 that time worked for Representative Clinger, 6 because without that, I would not have even 7 known the name Clinger. 8 Q Who was that? 9 A His name was Phil Larson. 10 Q When did Mr. Larson contact you? 11 A I think it was early on, after the 12 Travelgate became Travelgate, and it became 13 an issue. 14 Q Did you tell him you'd seen a file 15 with the name Clinger on it? 16 MS. SHAPIRO: While we're waiting, 17 I'll just put in a continuing objection to 18 the form and speculation. 19 (Witness conferred with counsel) 20 THE WITNESS: With respect to 21 files, I discussed with Phil Larson concerns 22 that I had about seemingly suspicious files 249 1 appearing in different portions of The White 2 House. I think that's all I need to say on 3 that. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q When did you have the conversation 6 with Phil Larson? 7 A You know what? You'd have better 8 success asking him that question. I don't 9 remember. His name was -- my name was given 10 to him and, I think he knew me peripherally 11 from the Bush White House. I had never met 12 him. But his name -- my name was given to 13 him by White House personnel staff members 14 who used to work for him, and who passed 15 along that I might have information that he 16 would find interesting. He was at that time 17 working for, I believe, for Representative 18 Clinger. 19 Q Did you tell him you had seen a 20 file labeled Clinger? 21 A I don't recall specifically if I 22 told him that or not. 250 1 Q Do you think you did? 2 A I don't recall. I'm sorry. 3 Q Had you seen the file at the time 4 that you talked to him? 5 A I think so, but I don't think I had 6 made the connection until I spoke to him, and 7 it may well have been the other way around. 8 I just have no distinct recollection of when. 9 Q Did you give him the names of any 10 other files that you had seen in Kennedy's 11 office or elsewhere? 12 A No. 13 Q You just referred to seeing files 14 in Kennedy's office and around The White 15 House. 16 A Yes. 17 Q Are there any files around The 18 White House that you haven't previously 19 identified today? 20 A No, I'm sorry. I should have been 21 more clear. I was referring to Craig 22 Livingstone's office, again this very same 251 1 location I've stated repeatedly today. 2 Q Do you know whether or not Terry 3 Good housed FBI files in the Office of 4 Records Management for Mr. Livingstone? 5 A I don't know. I never saw any. 6 Q When you made this statement in 7 leaving the Grand Jury on July 29, 1998, and 8 you were referring in part to your experience 9 of having observed FBI file-related matters, 10 were you also factoring in the conversations 11 that you had with Betsy Pond and the ones you 12 overheard of Bill Kennedy and Marcia Scott 13 about loading files on to computer? 14 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q You can respond. 17 A Certainly that was a part of it, of 18 course. 19 Q What was it about those 20 conversations about loading files on to 21 computer that caused you to think there could 22 be illegalities being committed, if anything? 252 1 A Over time, it smacked of Big 2 Brother to me, and of course that had been 3 the nickname of our backup system, so to me, 4 it was frightening. Remember, this is 5 nothing I had been exposed to in my work in 6 the previous administration. This was 7 completely new and different, and I had 8 worked at the highest levels of senior 9 leadership in The White House. So it wasn't 10 as though I would not have been exposed to -- 11 in my opinion, it's not as though I might not 12 have been exposed to this sort of thing in 13 the Bush White House. I hadn't seen anything 14 like this. 15 Q Did you or anyone else ever ask 16 what was meant by the name Big Brother for 17 the backup system? 18 A No, because it was a joke. I mean, 19 it was sort of a -- that's what they called 20 where the backup system was stored. I don't 21 think any of us really cared. We assumed 22 they had the right to do that. 253 1 Q Who's they? 2 A The computer people. 3 Q You testified that on two or three 4 occasions you had conversations with Bill 5 Kennedy about personnel? 6 A At least on two occasions and, I 7 think, three at least -- I think three that I 8 recall were personnel related, yes. 9 Q How did that arise? What was that 10 about? 11 A Concerns that I had addressed with 12 Bernie Nussbuam. He suggested I speak to 13 Bill Kennedy about it. 14 Q What were those concerns? 15 MS. SHAPIRO: Could we have a 16 moment, please? 17 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Bear with us one 18 second. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Go off the record. 20 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off 21 video record at 5:15. 22 (Recess) 254 1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on 2 video record at 5:25. 3 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Mr. Klayman, with 4 respect to the last question, I would proffer 5 to you that the substance of that 6 conversation has no apparent, or obvious or 7 even tangential relationship to Filegate and 8 these related matters. It does deal, 9 however, with some very personal matters 10 related to Ms. Pond, and I think for 11 Ms. Tripp to divulge that information on a 12 public record would cause undue embarrassment 13 to Ms. Pond, as well as Ms. Tripp, and I'm 14 going to instruct her not to answer the 15 question. 16 I do want to finish, and I would 17 proffer that I would like to defer this 18 matter for the court for consideration, and 19 if necessary, of course, Ms. Tripp will 20 comply with the court as order. I believe 21 she'd be willing to testify to this matter 22 under seal, if the court deemed it 255 1 appropriate. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: We'd made that offer, 3 incidentally, when you raised the issue with 4 another witness Mr. Kennedy, and that was 5 declined by the Clinton Justice Department. 6 MS. SHAPIRO: Can I interject 7 something? 8 MR. KLAYMAN: No, because I'm not 9 finished. 10 MS. SHAPIRO: I think it will be 11 helpful to you. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: No, I don't think it 13 will. 14 Was there a discussion that you 15 just had with the Clinton Justice Department 16 over this issue? 17 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Yes, there was. 18 We'll take this up in court tomorrow morning. 19 MS. SHAPIRO: Let me state for the 20 record, please, that with respect to 21 Ms. Pond, we are willing to let information 22 be taken under seal if necessary, due to a 256 1 recent discovery that the matter was, in 2 fact, testified to in a now public, but 3 obscure deposition. So with respect to that 4 information, we will make proffer in writing 5 to the court in amendment to our motion for 6 protective order that's on the able, and we 7 will allow that to be taken under seal. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Was the so-called 9 deposition in this lawsuit? 10 MS. SHAPIRO: No. I don't think 11 these could ever be called obscure, 12 Mr. Klayman. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Thank you. That's 14 the nicest thing you've ever said about me. 15 Does that change your position, 16 Mr. Zaccagnini? 17 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Only to the extent 18 that, yes, we would be willing to offer the 19 testimony under seal. It's a matter of 20 personal concern to Mrs. Tripp that she had 21 expressed to me before my discussions with 22 justice attorneys, and quite frankly, I think 257 1 once the information's divulged to you, 2 you'll understand everybody's concern. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Did you had prior 4 conversations with justice attorneys before 5 today about this issue? 6 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Yes, I have. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Did these conversations have 9 anything to do with Vince Foster? 10 A I wasn't there. Please don't ask 11 me that question. 12 Q Wasn't there for what? 13 A Any discussions with justice or 14 anyone else. 15 Q No. No. Not about that. 16 A Oh, what? I'm sorry. Please 17 repeat. 18 Q These discussions you had with 19 Ms. Kennedy over Ms. Pond and Ms. Gorham, did 20 they concern Vince Foster in any way? 21 A His name came up. 22 Q Do you know whether or not Vince 258 1 Foster had FBI files in his office, other 2 than the Dale file that you previously 3 identified? 4 A I don't know. 5 Q Do you know whether or not upon his 6 death, files were taken out of his office? 7 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to the 8 form. 9 MR. ZACCAGNINI: As it relates to 10 FBI files? 11 MR. KLAYMAN: I want to ask the 12 foundation question, a simple question. 13 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'll instruct the 14 witness to only answer the question as it 15 relates to FBI files. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: She may or may not 17 know that files that were taken out actually 18 were FBI files, so I'm entitled to ask it 19 both ways. 20 MR. ZACCAGNINI: As it relates to 21 FBI files. 22 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 259 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Did you see files being taken out 3 of his office? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Who took the files out of his 6 office? 7 A Maggie -- 8 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Form and 9 relevancy. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q You can respond. 12 A Maggie Williams. 13 Q When did you see that? 14 A Shortly after Mr. Foster's death. 15 Q How were the files taken out? 16 A In boxes. 17 Q Was anyone assisting Ms. Williams? 18 A Tom Castleton, our staff assistant 19 for correspondence. 20 Q Anyone else? 21 A Not to my recollection, no. 22 Q Was Craig Livingstone in Vince 260 1 Foster's office after Vince Foster died? 2 A Craig Livingstone was in the 3 counsel office suite a lot after -- in the 4 immediate aftermath of Mr. Foster's death, 5 but I don't have a recollection of whether he 6 gained entry to Vince Foster's office that 7 morning or not. 8 Q Did it strike you as out of the 9 ordinary that Mr. Livingstone was in the 10 office a great deal after Mr. Foster died? 11 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 12 THE WITNESS: It was unusual for 13 that level of participation from 14 Mr. Livingstone, yes. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q How was it unusual? 17 A Mr. Livingstone's office fell 18 under, loosely as I was told, fell under the 19 counsel office structure, which would have 20 made Mr. Nussbaum the senior person in the 21 chain of command for Mr. Livingstone. 22 However, much as Mr. Livingstone tried 261 1 repeatedly to gain access to Mr. Nussbaum, 2 both by way of appointment or by a drop-by, 3 he very seldom succeeded in getting into the 4 door, and when he did get in, Bernie always 5 called him Cliff. 6 Q Why did he call him Cliff? 7 A Because he thought that was what 8 his name was. 9 Q He looked like a cliff? 10 A I think he just didn't pay enough 11 attention. He really didn't -- clearly 12 didn't know him well; wouldn't you say? It 13 annoyed Craig to no end. In fact, he asked 14 me to address it with Bernie, which I did, 15 and he persisted in calling him Cliff. 16 Q Was the frequency of 17 Mr. Livingstone's presence in the office 18 after Mr. Foster died what you find out of 19 the ordinary. Or was it where he went that 20 you found out of the ordinary, or both? 21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 22 THE WITNESS: What I found out of 262 1 the ordinary, and I don't know what that 2 means about the form, but what I noticed, my 3 observation that was unusual was his 4 changed -- my perception of his changed role, 5 all of a sudden. Where prior to that, he 6 seemed to not be able to get in the door, and 7 now he was a very active participant in 8 whatever was going on. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Why was he not able to get in the 11 door earlier? 12 A I don't know. 13 Q What do you mean by getting in the 14 door? 15 A As I stated, he was not able to 16 gain access to Bernie or Vince routinely, as 17 evidenced by the number of times he was 18 turned away and by the many times he was 19 called Cliff. 20 Q After Vince's death, did someone 21 then let him into Vince's office when he came 22 up? 263 1 A Yes, but I don't remember who, and 2 I don't remember which day. 3 Q Do you remember how many times, 4 roughly? 5 A He was around a lot, as was Bill 6 Kennedy. I'm sorry. I don't remember. 7 Q When you say around, you mean Bill 8 Kennedy and Cliff Craig Livingstone was in 9 Foster's office a lot? 10 A In our suite a lot. 11 Q Actually in Mr. Foster's office? 12 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 13 the question. 14 THE WITNESS: There came a time 15 that the door had a guard in attendance, a 16 secret service person in attendance, ensuring 17 that people did not go in. Late in the 18 morning, the morning we came to work, the day 19 after Vince Foster was found dead, that was 20 relatively late in the morning, I believe, 21 and I can't be certain. I better not say. I 22 don't remember when he went in. I do recall 264 1 his going in. I don't recall when, whether 2 it was when the guard had left, whether it 3 was when the door lock was put on. I don't 4 remember. I didn't take any notes. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q But you know it was several times? 7 A He was in our office several times. 8 I don't know that it was more than once he 9 was in Vince Foster's office. 10 Q Did you ever see him carrying 11 things out of your office? 12 A I better not say, because I don't 13 have a clear recollection. 14 Q Well, if you have any recollection, 15 you have to say. We've been through this 16 with other witnesses in the case. There's a 17 recent order on that. So if you have any 18 recollection, you have to tell us, Ms. Tripp, 19 and we'll take it just for what it is; that's 20 all. 21 A I'm under oath here, Mr. Klayman, 22 and I am more than willing to give you my 265 1 honest recollections, and I have honestly 2 stated that I have a clear recollection of 3 Maggie Williams with Tom Castleton, because I 4 asked questions during that removal. 5 This other that I'm thinking of 6 right now, I did not ask questions, and so 7 I'm less inclined to be positive in my 8 testimony, and I'm not inclined to speculate. 9 Please don't make me do that. 10 Q I'm not asking you to speculate, 11 but if you think that Livingstone may have 12 left the office after Foster died with 13 something, then you have to tell us, and 14 we'll just take it as you think. You're not 15 sure, but you think. 16 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Do you have any 17 knowledge, Mrs. Tripp? If you don't, you 18 don't. Just state it for the record. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me say before she 20 say does state that, we just had a deposition 21 of Terry Good, who was subject to a court 22 order that came out on the same day. We'll 266 1 give you a copy of it, Mr. Zaccagnini, where 2 Good came into this deposition and said that 3 I was instructed. And unless I remember it 4 100 percent, I should say I don't remember, 5 and the judge was very critical of that. 6 MR. GILLIGAN: I object to that 7 mischaracterization of Mr. Good's deposition 8 testimony. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: You'll have your 10 opportunity, Mr. Gilligan. 11 MR. GILLIGAN: I just did. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: That matter is still 13 under review by the court. The court made it 14 clear that if you remember something, 15 whatever it is, you have to say it. 16 THE WITNESS: But I don't feel 17 confident that that's something that I can 18 say with 100 percent certainty under oath. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't want 100 20 percent. You can give me 1 percent 21 certainty. 22 MR. ZACCAGNINI: She's answered the 267 1 question to the best of her knowledge, 2 Mr. Klayman. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Do you remember Mr. Livingstone 5 possibly leaving with anything after 6 Mr. Foster died? 7 A If the question is, do I remember 8 Mr. Livingstone possibly leaving with 9 anything? The answer is yes. 10 Q What do you possibly remember him 11 leaving with? 12 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 13 It's speculation. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q You can respond. 16 A Something other than his person. 17 Q Files? 18 A I don't know. I don't know. He 19 had something under his arm. I remember 20 thinking that that was unusual, and beyond 21 that, I just don't care to speculate. 22 Q Where was he coming from when you 268 1 saw this thing under his arm? 2 A He was leaving our office. 3 Q Do you know whether he had access 4 to any offices inside the suite at that time? 5 A I can tell you that whatever he had 6 with him when he left in this possible 7 scenario, was not something he had obtained 8 from the outer office. 9 Q How do you know that? 10 A Because I was in the outer office, 11 and I knew what was going on in the outer 12 office. That was my area. He didn't get it 13 from that office. 14 Q Was it in a briefcase when he took 15 it? 16 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 17 THE WITNESS: I don't recall a 18 briefcase. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Do you recall paper? 21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 22 THE WITNESS: No, I'm sorry. I 269 1 recall a bundle of some sort. I don't have 2 any further level of specificity to give you. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Possibly redwells? 5 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I just want to 7 understand. 8 THE WITNESS: So do I. I wish I 9 could. 10 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'm going to 11 instruct Mrs. Tripp not to speculate as to 12 what it was. If she has a recollection, then 13 I'll ask her to you exactly what it is that 14 she recalls. I appreciate the fact that 15 you're trying to jar her memory, but I think 16 she's already answered that question. 17 THE WITNESS: I've given this a 18 great deal of thought over time, and I really 19 don't have a recollection of what it was. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q It may have been files? 22 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Form. 270 1 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Asked and 2 answered. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q You can respond. 5 A It may have been a dog in a box. I 6 don't know. I really don't know. 7 Q Did Mr. Livingstone have a dog? 8 A I don't know. 9 Q Did it strike you as out of the 10 ordinary that he was leaving with something 11 at that time? 12 A Yes. 13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Did you mention it to anyone else 16 that you saw Craig Livingstone leaving with 17 something? 18 A I don't know that I mentioned I saw 19 him leaving with something. I wasn't alone 20 at the time that he left. There were 21 extensive conversations going on during that 22 time with all of us in the outer office, and 271 1 so, yes, that was raised. 2 Q Did Marceca ever come up to the 3 suite after Foster died? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Did he come up more often than he 6 had before Foster died? 7 A Tony Marceca was over there 8 frequently, because of the safe issue that 9 I've already explained, so we saw him more 10 regularly and with open arms, mostly because 11 we had requested his presence. So, no, he -- 12 it wasn't a night and day difference as it 13 was with Mr. Livingstone, no. 14 Q Did you see him leaving with 15 anything after Foster died? 16 A No. 17 Q Do you know whether or not the 18 Office of Personnel Security kept a log of 19 files which were taken out of its office up 20 to The White House counsel's office? 21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Form. 22 THE WITNESS: A log -- 272 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Kept a listing of materials. 3 A Their office? 4 Q Yes. 5 A So they said. 6 Q Who told you that? 7 A That was explained to me in a very 8 unusual way when Mr. Livingstone's assistant 9 was attempting to get a promotion, and a 10 title change and business cards, all of which 11 we rejected. Part of their rationale for 12 this upgrade was a listing of her duties, and 13 one of those duties was that she maintained a 14 log of files that were released, and to whom 15 and the date and this sort of thing, and as I 16 explained to Craig, that was certainly a part 17 of her clerical assignment and did not 18 warrant the new title and business cards and 19 so on. It was part of our budget. It was 20 part of the counsel's office budget and would 21 have had to have been approved by 22 Mr. Nussbaum, who did not approve it. So 273 1 that's a roundabout way of explaining how I 2 was aware of a log. 3 Q Who was the assistant? 4 A I'm sorry. I don't remember her 5 name. 6 Q Was it Mari Anderson? 7 A I think so. 8 Q Are you aware that there was a gap 9 in that log of about six months? 10 A No. 11 Q Did you ever see Craig Livingstone 12 using a computer? 13 A I'm sorry. What do you mean? In 14 his office? 15 Q Yes. 16 A Oh, yeah, I've seen him seated at a 17 desk with a computer. 18 Q Did you ever see him actually using 19 it? 20 A Yeah. I don't know what he was 21 doing. It wasn't facing me. 22 Q Did you see him typing on it? 274 1 A I saw him seated at his computer 2 doing something. I've seen him do that. I 3 don't know any more than that. 4 Q The conversations that you had with 5 Mr. Kennedy that you're counsel instructed 6 you not to talk about concerning Ms. Gorham 7 and Ms. Pond -- 8 A Just for the record, that was 9 actually my preference not to talk about the 10 substance of those conversations. 11 Q Did any of those discussions 12 concern files, just files generally? 13 A These particular conversations? 14 Q Yes. 15 A No. 16 Q Were those conversations behind 17 closed doors? 18 A Yes. 19 Q How long did they last? 20 A Not long, 15 minutes maybe. 21 Q During those conversations, did you 22 observe the stacks of files in Mr. Kennedy's 275 1 office? 2 A Yes, I continued to observe them. 3 Q Did you become more observant each 4 time you walked in? 5 A To the extent that I would see more 6 names, not really. The stacks looked very 7 similar each time I was there. I remember 8 that was over a period of time. 9 Q Do you know whether or not those 10 files were ever sent back to the FBI, the 11 ones you saw in Kennedy's office? 12 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 13 Lack of foundation. 14 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Do you have any 15 knowledge? 16 THE WITNESS: Well, I don't know 17 where they would have been sent back to, 18 because I have no direct knowledge where they 19 came from, but I will tell you this. By the 20 time I left The White House in August of '94, 21 they were still there. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 276 1 Q Did you ever known Jane Sherburn in 2 The White House counsel's office? 3 A I did. 4 Q Did you ever discuss the issue of 5 these files with Ms. Sherburn? 6 A I don't believe so, no. 7 Q Do you know whether or not 8 Ms. Sherburn was aware of FBI files in the 9 office when you worked in the office? 10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q You can respond. 13 A I really can't answer that. I 14 don't know. I haven't thought about Jane 15 Sherburn in years. I'd have to think about 16 it again and try to reconstruct. 17 Q Have you ever seen a document where 18 Ms. Sherburn references FBI files written 19 in 1994? 20 A Not at the moment, no. 21 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Can I have a 22 second, Mr. Klayman? 277 1 (Counsel conferred with witness) 2 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what 3 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as 4 Exhibit 8. It's a memorandum of JCS, 5 Privileged, Task List, December 13, 1994. 6 (Tripp Deposition Exhibit No. 8 7 was marked for identification.) 8 THE WITNESS: December 13, '94? 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Right. 11 A That was long after my departure. 12 Q I'm just going to ask you if you've 13 ever seen this document. It was published in 14 The Wall Street Journal on September 6, 1996. 15 A Do I need to read all this? 16 Q No, just look at it quickly and 17 tell me if you've ever seen this document 18 before. 19 A Yeah. I have not seen this 20 document. I've seen documents very similar 21 to these that came out of The White House -- 22 Whitewater damage control meetings that were 278 1 held in John Podesta's office. 2 Q What Whitewater damage control 3 meetings? What do you mean by that? 4 A They were almost daily meetings 5 held in John -- 6 MS. SHAPIRO: I just want to 7 caution, before we get too far into meetings 8 relating to Whitewater or to senior staff 9 that aren't relevant to this proceeding. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: She just testified 11 she saw similar documents, so I'm entitled to 12 get a little foundation here. 13 MS. SHAPIRO: It also may be 14 privileged, so we have to tread carefully 15 here. 16 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I don't see a 17 problem with her answering this question at 18 this point in time. If we're getting close, 19 then I'll let you know. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. 21 THE WITNESS: Perhaps it's not 22 relevant to the Filegate story, because 279 1 actually the documents to which I'm referring 2 to had to do with many troublesome issues. 3 The documents looked like that way. Jane 4 Sherburn eventually became an attendee when 5 she came over with Lloyd Cutler, and her area 6 of responsibility seemed to widen over time, 7 at least during my tenure there, and clearly 8 after my departure. But again, yes, I've 9 seen documents much like that. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q When did these meetings take place? 12 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form and 13 to the relevancy of any Whitewater damage 14 meetings, if that's what the reference is. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q You can respond. 17 A Well, I can tell you that they 18 started prior to Joel Kline's arrival as 19 deputy counsel, which I believe was in 20 December of '93, and I don't recall Bernie 21 having much of a role in those meetings. If 22 at all. I'm sure he attended some. In fact, 280 1 he did attend some, because Bruce Lindsey's 2 assistant would call and assure that Bernie 3 was on the schedule to attend, but later on, 4 after Bernie was no longer at The White 5 House, Joel Kline became the point man -- 6 actually, before Bernie left, Joel Kline 7 became the point man for so-called damage 8 control and was the attendee, and it was 9 through he and his assistant that I learned 10 more. 11 Q Where did those meetings take 12 place? 13 A The basement level of the west wing 14 of the White House, in what was then John 15 Podesta's staff secretary office, I believe. 16 Q These meetings concerned all of the 17 Clinton controversies, generally speaking, 18 that were present at that point in time? 19 A It was a vast array of topics, yes. 20 Q What were some of the topics you 21 can remember? 22 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to the 281 1 identification of any topic, other than the 2 FBI files matters. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: It's not that 4 limited. If you want to go in front of Judge 5 Lamberth and make that argument, you can, but 6 this is absurd. 7 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I have to agree 8 with Ms. Shapiro. I allowed you to go down 9 this road, because I thought there would be a 10 connection, but I don't see any connection, 11 because clearly this predated the Filegate 12 matter. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me tell you what 14 the connection is and let me back up here. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Who generally attended these 17 meetings? 18 A Am I -- 19 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Sure, you can say 20 that. 21 THE WITNESS: I prepared for the 22 Filegate portion honestly, and this was not 282 1 something I went into in my Grand Jury 2 testimony, so I have not spent a great deal 3 of time on this. I will give you off the top 4 of my head the names that I recall, bearing 5 in mind that it won't be a complete list. 6 Given time, I think I could give you a 7 complete list. 8 Always John Podesta, Jennifer 9 Dudly -- 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Who's Jennifer Dudly? 12 A At the time, she was John. 13 Podesta's assistant. She, at one point, 14 became Bruce Lindsey's assistant. I don't 15 know what her status is today. Harold [florin][florin][florin][florin], 16 Joel Kline, Steve Neuwirth, Cliff Sloan. 17 Q Who was Steve Sloan? 18 A Cliff Sloan. 19 Q What was his position? 20 A Associate counsel to the President, 21 whose area, in the beginning, was Travel 22 Office. I don't know if it expanded over 283 1 time. Nuwell Eggleston, Maggie Williams, and 2 I can't say for certain how many of those 3 meetings or whether even Maggie was a 4 regular. I can tell you that there were 5 times when I actually had to deliver 6 documents, requested documents, down to the 7 meeting and so would actually be in the 8 office during the course of the meeting, and 9 there were occasions when I saw Maggie there, 10 which is why I've given you that name; one 11 time, in particular, I recall. 12 Q Anyone else? 13 A I'd really have to think of it. 14 Off the top of my head, that's it. 15 Q How frequently did these meetings 16 occur? 17 A Very frequently. 18 Q More than once a week? 19 A Yes. 20 Q How many, roughly speaking? 21 A They were regularly scheduled 22 meetings, often spilled over into other 284 1 meetings, following those meetings with 2 smaller groups. I would say at least twice a 3 week and probably more frequently, depending 4 on the escalation of any given issue in the 5 press. 6 Q What is it that you call these 7 meetings? How did you first refer to them? 8 A Damage control meetings. 9 Q They concerned the Clinton 10 scandals? 11 A I don't think the Clintons would 12 choose to characterize them that way. 13 Q Controversy? 14 A Issues of interest, yes. 15 Q The Clintons wouldn't call them 16 scandals. To say it nicely, you'd say issues 17 of controversy? 18 A Right. 19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q You understood them to be scandals, 22 correct? 285 1 MS. SHAPIRO: Again, objection to 2 form. 3 THE WITNESS: I understood them to 4 be problem issues, yes. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Did there come a point in time when 7 the mix of people at those problem 8 issue/scandal meetings changed? 9 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'm going to 10 object. I've given you plenty of time, 11 Mr. Klayman, to set some kind of relevance to 12 this line of questioning, and I just don't 13 see it. I really don't. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: I think you can see 15 it, because these people obviously took a 16 role in the Clinton scandals, and they may 17 actually have information about Filegate. 18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. That is 19 completely speculative, and it's way beyond 20 the boundaries of the order. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: We'll be happy to 22 discuss this with the court tomorrow. 286 1 MS. SHAPIRO: We're happy to 2 discuss it too, but for purposes right now, 3 we're not going to allow testimony on, quote, 4 other Clinton scandals. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Each time you do 6 something like this, you up the cost and 7 expense to Judicial Watch and the plaintiffs. 8 Each time you delay matters. Each time 9 you're pushing things off to let the court 10 use up its time and resources. Does there 11 come a point in time when the Clinton Justice 12 Department says enough is enough and just 13 tries to get at the truth, Ms. Shapiro? 14 MS. SHAPIRO: Mr. Klayman, you're 15 the one using up the clock with speeches. 16 It's a tired old speech that we've heard. 17 You suggested that we go to the court, and 18 we're happy to do so. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it. 20 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Mr. Klayman, at 21 this point in time, I'm going to ask that we 22 recess these proceedings. Mrs. Tripp has 287 1 expressed to me that she's exhausted. She's 2 been at it since 10:00 today. She's been up 3 since 6:00 a.m. this morning. 4 THE WITNESS: 5:00. 5 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I am going to ask 6 that we recess these proceedings. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me ask you this. 8 Can we have 15 more minutes? 9 THE WITNESS: If you insist, 10 certainly. 11 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Mr. Klayman, do 12 you anticipate wrapping up your direct 13 examination in 15 minutes, pending those 14 questions that you have certified. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: No, I just need 15 16 more minutes to finish up this line of 17 questioning. 18 MR. ZACCAGNINI: We'll see where we 19 go. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't know that 21 I'll finish, but I'll try to get as far as I 22 can. 288 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Do you know who hired Craig 3 Livingstone? 4 A I don't know for a fact who hired 5 Craig Livingstone, no. 6 Q Whom do you think hired Craig 7 Livingstone? 8 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Form. 9 THE WITNESS: I can only tell you 10 who Craig Livingstone told me hired Craig 11 Livingstone. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q What did he tell you? 14 A He told me Mrs. Clinton hired him. 15 Q When did he tell you that? 16 A Relatively shortly after my arrival 17 in the counsel's office, when he asked me how 18 I managed to get a job like that. So I asked 19 him, how did he manage to get a job like 20 that? 21 Q Where was he when he made that 22 statement? 289 1 A In the counsel's office. 2 Q Was there a particular office 3 inside the counsel's office? 4 A He was outside -- he was in the 5 anteroom, the reception area, the support 6 staff area where my desk was located. 7 Q Was anyone present that overheard 8 that statement? 9 A I have no recollection of who was 10 or wasn't there. Generally speaking, we were 11 all there at the same time, so it could have 12 been any one of the four of us. 13 Q Did he tell you why Mrs. Clinton 14 hired him? 15 A No. 16 Q Did you ever ask him? 17 A No. 18 Q Did you ever ask anybody else? 19 A No. 20 Q From the statement that 21 Mrs. Clinton hired Mr. Livingstone, did you 22 infer that Mrs. Clinton was behind the whole 290 1 FBI files issue? 2 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 3 THE WITNESS: That's a leap. I 4 didn't really make a connection at that 5 point. What I made a connection in my mind 6 was he's well connected. He must be 7 extremely well connected, and that answered a 8 lot of questions I might have had. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Did you later make that "leap" in 11 retrospect, up to the time that you exited 12 the Grand Jury on July 28, 1998, and made the 13 statement that I read to you earlier? 14 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 15 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q You can respond. 18 A That would not have been why I made 19 the leap. Craig Livingstone's assertions of 20 how he got his job was not precisely what I 21 was referring to in that statement, no. 22 Q But you did make the leap? 291 1 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 2 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q You can respond. 5 A It seemed all of a piece. 6 Q Why is that? Tell us the 7 foundation reason why you came to that 8 conclusion, the basis of that conclusion. 9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 10 Speculation. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q You can respond. 13 MR. ZACCAGNINI: The question 14 again, Mr. Klayman? I'm sorry. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q On what basis did you come to the 17 conclusion that Mrs. Clinton was somehow 18 involved in the FBI files matter? 19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 20 THE WITNESS: Excuse me. 21 (Witness conferred with counsel) 22 THE WITNESS: Mr. Klayman, there 292 1 were many contributing small little bits of 2 information to which I was exposed during 3 that period. Some of those came from Craig 4 Livingstone himself, and, as I said, it all 5 eventually became of a piece to me, my 6 opinion, and I think it goes well beyond what 7 we're here to talk about today, but suffice 8 it to say, if you will, that I believe that 9 Craig wanted me to believe that everything he 10 did, he did at the direction of Mrs. Clinton. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Did he say that explicitly to you 13 from time to time? 14 A I think it was more implied than it 15 was explicitly stated. Craig tended to do 16 things that were somewhat questionable in 17 terms of perhaps overstating his own value in 18 very bizarre ways, frankly, and so one would 19 normally, over time I think, take what he 20 said with a grain of salt. 21 Q Give me an example of how he led 22 you to believe that he was acting at the 293 1 direction of Mrs. Clinton. 2 A Well, there were times when he was 3 very frustrated with me personally, because I 4 wouldn't let him in to see Mr. Nussbaum, who 5 had an extremely busy schedule, and who 6 clearly had made it rather plain to me that 7 he didn't have any wish to deal with 8 Mr. Livingstone, and that he should deal with 9 Bill Kennedy. 10 Q Was Mr. Nussbaum's opinion of 11 Mr. Livingstone to be basically an idiot? 12 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 13 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Only if you know 14 what his opinion is. Did he ever express an 15 opinion to you, Mr. Nussbaum? 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Did you get that impression from 18 Mr. Nussbaum that this guy's an idiot? 19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 20 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection. 21 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Did Mr. Nussbaum 22 ever express an opinion to you about 294 1 Mr. Livingstone? 2 THE WITNESS: I wouldn't say he 3 expressed an opinion. He kept asking me who 4 I meant, so to me, that told me what his 5 opinion was. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q In other words, you got a feeling 8 from Mr. Nussbaum that he had distain towards 9 Mr. Livingstone? 10 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 11 the question. 12 THE WITNESS: No, I think he 13 honestly didn't have a lot to do with him. I 14 think he honestly knew his face, knew what he 15 did, but didn't get into the weeds that 16 deeply. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Didn't want to get into the weeds? 19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 20 THE WITNESS: I don't know that he 21 had the time or inclination to get into the 22 weeds that deeply. 295 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q To continue, what was it that 3 Mr. Livingstone told you, by way of example, 4 that created your belief that he was trying 5 to convey that he was acting on behalf of 6 Mrs. Clinton? 7 A He would talk into his watch and 8 act as though he were her covert agent. He 9 didn't have an ear piece. It wasn't a -- it 10 was a regular watch. 11 Q Was he talking to Mrs. Clinton at 12 the time? 13 A He would like you to believe so. 14 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Form. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q What other examples where he tried 17 to convey his agency for Mrs. Clinton? 18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q You can respond. 21 A Overall, the impression I had was 22 that he, as I said, was well connected, and 296 1 that he had a direct pipeline to 2 Mrs. Clinton. Whether or not that was true, 3 I never formed an opinion one way or another. 4 I didn't see them having lunch. It seemed a 5 form of self aggrandizement. It didn't seem 6 necessarily true. However, that said, this 7 is a man whose very existence in that 8 position at The White House was beyond 9 comprehension for someone like me. 10 Q In other words, you concluded he 11 must have had friends in high places to get 12 the job? 13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q That was your belief? 16 A I concluded that he had to be there 17 for a reason, yes. 18 Q You concluded that he was put there 19 by Mrs. Clinton? 20 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Form. 21 MR. GAFFNEY: I join the objection. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 297 1 Q You can respond. 2 A I concluded that what he had said 3 to me was quite possibly true. 4 Q That he was put there by 5 Mrs. Clinton? 6 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I think she's 7 already answered the question, Mr. Klayman. 8 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 9 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I've never 10 objected to any of your leading questions, 11 because, quite frankly, I'm not a party to 12 this litigation, but I would ask on issues of 13 Mrs. Tripp's opinions, that you not try to 14 lead. 15 THE WITNESS: I've tried not to be 16 led. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Did Mr. Livingstone ever tell you 19 that he had had access to The White House 20 residence? 21 A Oh, on more than one occasion, yes. 22 Q On how many occasions? 298 1 A Several times. Remember when I say 2 this, please put it in context. He -- and 3 you couldn't know this, but he, for instance, 4 was in the process of trying to date one of 5 my volunteers; so we received often very 6 unsolicited bizarre information that none of 7 us cared to know, about access and his 8 access, his proximity to the first family, 9 None of which phased any of us, but clearly 10 impressed him. 11 Q He told you that he could get into 12 the residence whenever he wanted to? 13 A Yes. 14 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 15 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q He told you that he took things to 18 Mrs. Clinton in the residence? 19 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 20 MS. SHAPIRO: Join that objection. 21 THE WITNESS: No, he never told me 22 about that. 299 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q You don't know whether he did or he 3 didn't? 4 A Actually he never said that to me. 5 That's one of the things he didn't say. I 6 don't remember that at all. 7 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the use 8 of questions without a proper factual 9 foundation. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Do you know whether or not he took 12 files to Mrs. Clinton? 13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Form. 14 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection. Form. 15 THE WITNESS: I don't know. I 16 don't know. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Do you know whether he ever 19 attended Christmas parties in the residence? 20 A I can only tell you that he claimed 21 to have attended. The only Christmas parties 22 I ever attended, and actually in this case, 300 1 it was in the singular, party, staff invited 2 to a Christmas reception during Christmas 3 of '93, and I don't recall seeing Craig 4 there, but I wasn't looking for him. 5 Q That's the only Christmas party you 6 know of where staff was invited to the 7 residence? 8 A No. No. It's the only one I 9 attended; so I don't have another way of 10 telling. 11 Q Do you know if staff ever having 12 been invited to the residence, other than for 13 a social occasion? 14 A I'm sure -- I'm not sure what you 15 mean. What do you mean, other than a social? 16 Q Did the staff routinely have access 17 to go up to the residence and see 18 Mrs. Clinton or Mr. Clinton? 19 A Oh, well, certain staff. I'm quite 20 certain that, I know for a fact, that Bruce 21 Lindsey was back and forth frequently when I 22 worked with him. Maggie Williams certainly 301 1 was. So staff -- obviously selective staff 2 who had a need to go over, yeah. I would not 3 say it was routine for anyone else. 4 Q Did you believe Mr. Livingstone 5 when he said he had frequent access to the 6 residence? 7 A Well, I believed it more than 8 talking into the watch, but I wasn't quite 9 certain of the validity of his claims, only 10 because he had this way of self-promotion. I 11 will tell you this. I began to believe him 12 over time. 13 Q What caused you to begin to believe 14 him over time? 15 A Because following Mr. Foster's 16 death, he seemed to -- he seemed to have more 17 access. He seemed to be over more. He had a 18 different air, completely different demeanor. 19 He was more confident, and again, please, let 20 me note that these are my observations and my 21 opinion. I'm sure there would be many who 22 would disagree with me. It's clearly only my 302 1 observation. 2 Q When you say access, access to 3 what? 4 A Joel Kline, our office in general. 5 Again, not Bernie Nussbuam, and I know it 6 sounds a bit as though I'm protecting Bernie 7 Nussbuam from something. I'm not. I'm 8 clearly not. I never saw him develop a 9 relationship with Bernie Nussbuam during my 10 tenure at The White House. 11 I think he attended, if I'm not 12 mistaken, we had a birthday party for Bernie 13 prior to his departure. His resignation was 14 I believe, March 5th, effective April 5th, 15 and I think in late March 20th something, we 16 had a good-bye birthday for him, and he was 17 there. I don't remember him being at the 18 farewell party the Nussbuam's threw for their 19 friends. 20 Q Livingstone did have regular access 21 to Kennedy? 22 A Oh, they were together all the 303 1 time. 2 Q Foster? 3 A Oh, yes, of course, and Joel Kline. 4 Q Are you aware that Livingstone 5 identified Vince Foster's body in the morgue? 6 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection as to 7 relevance. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q You can respond. I'm just laying a 10 foundation. 11 A I was aware the following morning 12 of that being true, yes. 13 Q How did you find out? 14 A Craig told me. 15 Q He was boasting about that? 16 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 17 THE WITNESS: He was telling me 18 what he and Bill Kennedy had done, yes. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Did you ask him why he was involved 21 in that? 22 A Actually, I'm not sure if it was in 304 1 the morning or later in the day. It was that 2 day, that next day. 3 Q Did you ask him why he was involved 4 in that? 5 A I think I was so stunned I didn't 6 that day ask him much of anything. The day 7 that I saw some materials, I asked him why it 8 was he who had gone along with Mr. Kennedy. 9 Q What did he tell you? 10 A He just said it was my job. I was 11 supposed to go. 12 Q Did he say he was sent there by 13 Mrs. Clinton? 14 A No. 15 Q Or anyone else? 16 A No. 17 Q Did Craig Livingstone ever talk to 18 you about whether or not he had contact with 19 Mr. Clinton, Bill Clinton? 20 A No, he never seemed to imply 21 directly or indirectly that he knew 22 Mr. Clinton well at all. It was always 305 1 Mrs. Clinton. 2 Q Did anyone else ever tell you, 3 other than Craig Livingstone himself, that 4 Craig Livingstone had been hired by 5 Mrs. Clinton? 6 A No. 7 Q Did you ever talk to Special Agent 8 Sloan Greeny? 9 A I know who he is. I'm sure I had 10 conversations with him. 11 Q Did he ever discuss whether or not 12 Mr. Livingstone had been hired by 13 Mrs. Clinton with you? 14 A I just don't have a specific 15 recollection of conversations I had. They 16 would have sort of gone over my head. I 17 wouldn't have thought about them much as 18 being significant. 19 Q Did Bernie Nussbuam ever say to you 20 that Mrs. Clinton hired Mr. Livingstone? 21 A No. 22 Q The subject never came up? 306 1 A I think he would have known his 2 name, if he thought that to be true. 3 Q But you don't know that for a fact? 4 A No, of course not. 5 Q You didn't discuss it with 6 Mr. Nussbaum? 7 A No. But Mr. Nussbaum never -- I 8 will say the fact that he didn't remember 9 Craig's name was significant to me, because 10 individuals with whom he had dealings or with 11 whom he felt that he would have future 12 interaction, I can promise you their names 13 didn't evade him when he needed them. 14 Q Did Mr. Nussbaum have nicknames for 15 people sometimes? 16 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'll going to 17 object as to relevance. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: It's relevant. 19 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I don't see how it 20 could possibly be relevant, unless it dealt 21 with one of the other people we've already 22 talked about. 307 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q You can respond. 3 A I can't remember. 4 Q Did he ever call somebody like 5 Zeke, or Claude or anything like that? 6 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 7 Relevancy. 8 THE WITNESS: I'll have to think 9 about this. You've thrown this at me from 10 nowhere. 11 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Your 15 minutes 12 are up. I'd like to talk to Mrs. Tripp and 13 see if she wants to stay. We're going to 14 call it a day. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Let's adjourn it at 16 this point. We thank you, Mrs. Tripp. 17 MS. WEISMANN: Before we adjourn, 18 can we get a time count on how much time 19 we've consumed? 20 MR. GILLIGAN: What time is on the 21 screen? 22 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 6:13. 308 1 MS. SHAPIRO: We need to establish 2 when to continue and how we handle. I 3 understand that Mr. Zaccagnini told us all 4 that he's available on Friday. That's his 5 first available day, which is fine with us. 6 So we ask Mr. Klayman if that's agreeable 7 with you. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll be right back. 9 MR. GILLIGAN: I have 5 hours 10 and 59 minutes down. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: I have 51 minutes 12 left. 13 MR. GILLIGAN: You have 51 minutes 14 left? 15 THE WITNESS: No, he only has 1 16 minute left. 17 MR. GILLIGAN: I'm sorry. I 18 misspoke. 19 MR. FITTON: We'll go with your 20 time. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, the time speaks 22 for itself, but it's nice to have a little 309 1 approximation, but we can tell from the 2 record itself how much time was used. 3 MS. SHAPIRO: Do you agree then to 4 Friday as a date to reconvene? 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 6 MS. SHAPIRO: What time? 7 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Earlier, the 8 better. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Why don't we say 10 at 10:00 a.m.? 11 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Does that give you 12 enough time? 13 THE WITNESS: Sure. 14 MR. GAFFNEY: Larry, what issues do 15 you have before the court tomorrow? 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, all the 17 questions that weren't answered and this 18 general misunderstanding. I don't want this 19 to count as our time, but I'll be happy to 20 discuss what it is. This misunderstanding 21 about what the order says and doesn't say, I 22 want that cleared up at the meeting. 310 1 MS. WEISMANN: If you could just 2 define what you believe the misunderstanding 3 to be? 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Ms. Weismann, you're 5 not counsel of record. 6 MS. WEISMANN: I am for the 7 Department of Defense, and I think for 8 purposes of your requirement under the local 9 rule, you need to advise us more clearly. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: We noted it on the 11 record. We certified certain questions that 12 we want to have cleared up in time for 13 Ms. Tripp to come back so that we can get 14 answers. I want a ruling on this very 15 restrictive view about what the judge has 16 said in his order. I want to be able to 17 raise that with him, along the lines that we 18 discussed during this deposition. 19 MR. GAFFNEY: Are we going to have 20 a transcript ready for the hearing? 21 MR. KLAYMAN: No, but we can 22 discuss the issues. 311 1 MS. WEISMANN: We need to be clear 2 for the court that you believe we have a 3 misunderstanding. I think we need to 4 understand what you believe. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: You understand, 6 Ms. Weismann. 7 MS. WEISMANN: No, if I understood 8 I wouldn't ask the question, Mr. Klayman. 9 I'm asking it honestly, because I believe 10 before we have this hearing, we're entitled 11 to know with greater specificity what issues 12 you intend to raise with the judge. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll be happy to call 14 you at 9:00 tomorrow; how's that? I am going 15 to go back through our notes. 16 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I just want to add 17 something to the record, and if you all can 18 give me some input, that would be great. On 19 the anticipated length of cross-examination, 20 I would like to get some input on that. 21 Mrs. Tripp has an assignment due with the 22 Pentagon on the 21st, which if she doesn't 312 1 comply, we're very fearful it will result in 2 her termination. We're making ourselves 3 available at great risk to her employment. 4 Hopefully, we won't be there all day, but 5 it's possible that we will, and we will try 6 to seek a continuance from the Department of 7 Defense on that deadline on that assignment, 8 but we want to get this over with as well. 9 What do you all think about 10 cross-examination? 11 MS. SHAPIRO: It's impossible to 12 evaluate, I think, at this point, because we 13 have to go back and look at the record, but I 14 anticipate a few hours at least. 15 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Historically, has 16 the court limited cross-examination, 17 Mr. Klayman; do you know? 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Historically, there's 19 been almost no cross-examination. I think 20 maybe there's like five questions in all of 21 these different depositions. 22 THE WITNESS: Why do I sense this 313 1 might be a different time? 2 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Very good. Thank 3 you. I'll see you all 10:00 tomorrow at the 4 courthouse? 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 6 MS. WEISMANN: Mr. Klayman, you 7 will call me at 9:00 a.m.? 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 9 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off 10 video record at 6:17. 11 (Whereupon, at 6:17 p.m., the 12 deposition of LINDA TRIPP was 13 continued.) 14 * * * * * 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 315 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA 2 ---------------------------x 3 CARA LESLIE ALEXANDER : et al., : 4 : Plaintiffs, : 5 : v. : Civil No. 96-2163 (RCL) 6 : FEDERAL BUREAU OF : 7 INVESTIGATION et al., : : 8 Defendants. : Volume 2 ---------------------------x 9 Washington, D.C. 10 Tuesday, January 5, 1999 11 12 Continued deposition of 13 LINDA R. TRIPP 14 a witness, recalled for examination by 15 counsel for Plaintiffs, pursuant to notice 16 and agreement of counsel, continuing at 17 approximately 10:20 a.m., at the law offices 18 of Judicial Watch, 501 School Street 19 Southwest, Washington, D.C., before Monica A. 20 Voorhees, notary public in and for the 21 District of Columbia, when were present on 22 behalf of the respective parties: 316 1 APPEARANCES: 2 On behalf of Plaintiffs: 3 LARRY KLAYMAN, ESQUIRE TOM FITTON, ESQUIRE 4 Judicial Watch 501 School Street Southwest, Suite 725 5 Washington, D.C. 20024 (202) 646-5172 6 7 On behalf of Defendants Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) and the Executive 8 Office of the President (EOP): 9 ELIZABETH J. SHAPIRO, ESQUIRE JAMES J. GILLIGAN, ESQUIRE 10 ANNE L. WEISMANN, ESQUIRE Federal Programs Branch 11 Civil Division United States Department of Justice 12 901 E Street Northwest, Room 988 Washington, D.C. 20530 13 (202) 514-5302 14 On behalf of Defendant Federal Bureau of 15 Investigation: 16 JON D. PIFER, ESQUIRE Office of General Counsel 17 Federal Bureau of Investigation 935 Pennsylvania Avenue Northwest 18 Washington, D.C. 20535 (202) 324-9665 19 20 21 22 317 1 APPEARANCES (CONT'D): 2 On behalf of Defendant Hillary Rodham Clinton: 3 PAUL B. GAFFNEY, ESQUIRE MAX STIER, ESQUIRE 4 Williams & Connolly 725 Twelfth Street Northwest 5 Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 434-5000 6 7 On behalf of The White House: 8 MICHELLE M. PETERSON, ESQUIRE Associate Counsel to the President 9 The White House Washington, D.C. 20500 10 (202) 456-7804 11 On behalf of Defendant Department of Defense: 12 13 BRAD WIEGMANN, ESQUIRE Office of General Counsel 14 United States Department of Defense 1600 Defense Pentagon, Room 3C975 15 Washington, D.C. 20301 (703) 695-3392 16 17 On behalf of Defendant Nussbaum: 18 ROBERT B. MAZUR, ESQUIRE Wachtell Lipton Rosen & Katz 19 51 West 52nd Street New York, New York 10019-6618 20 (212) 403-1000 21 22 318 1 APPEARANCES (CONT'D): 2 On behalf of the Office of the Independent Counsel: 3 STEPHEN BINHAK, ESQUIRE 4 Office of Independent Counsel 1001 Pennsylvania Avenue Northwest, 5 Suite 490 North Washington, D.C. 20004 6 (202) 514-8688 7 On behalf of Deponent: 8 ANTHONY ZACCAGNINI, ESQUIRE 9 ANTHONY LARDIERI, ESQUIRE Semmes Bowen & Semmes 10 250 West Pratt Street Baltimore, Maryland 21201 11 (410) 385-3935 12 13 * * * * * 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 319 1 C O N T E N T S 2 EXAMINATION BY: PAGE 3 Counsel for Plaintiffs 320 4 Counsel for Defendant FBI and EOP 388 5 * Proceedings transcribed from page 379, line 1 to page 386, line 10 designated 6 CONFIDENTIAL and bound separately per request. 7 TRIPP DEPOSITION EXHIBITS: 8 No. 9 - 49 Federal Register 23234 484 9 10 11 * * * * * 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 320 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 Whereupon, 3 LINDA R. TRIPP 4 was recalled as a witness and, having been 5 previously duly sworn, was examined and 6 testified further as follows: 7 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFFS 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Ms. Tripp, you realize you're still 10 under oath. This is a continuing deposition. 11 A I do. 12 Q At the conclusion of the last round 13 of your deposition we asked whether you could 14 identify any further individuals of 15 Exhibit 7, this is the list of FBI files 16 produced in this lawsuit. 17 You previously identified certain 18 persons by the name of Debra Ann Amend, David 19 Quentin Bates, Ann Brock, Bill Canary, 20 Maureen Hudson, Susanna Ludwig, Terry Good, 21 Al Nagy, Clinger, Dale, Chris Emory as 22 persons who you had seen files relating to 321 1 those persons in and around the White House 2 counsel's office? 3 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection, form. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Are there any other persons that 6 you can identify from the list which is 7 Exhibit 7, and before asking you to do that, 8 have you had an opportunity to go through 9 that list with your reading glasses? 10 A Yes, actually I have. The only 11 other name, let me be clear that there were 12 many other names that I saw, but in all 13 candor, even reviewing the list this way, it 14 has not refreshed my memory in terms of 15 specifics to be able to testify completely 16 and accurately. 17 So, the only other name that I do 18 have a firm recollection of is Dave, I think 19 his name is Carney, Dave Carney, and it's 20 listed with a more formal -- yeah. 21 Q How is his name listed on 22 Exhibit 7? 322 1 A David Michael Carney. 2 Q Who is Dave Carney? 3 A He was a fellow who I believe was a 4 commissioned officer in the Bush White House. 5 I'm not certain anymore what his formal title 6 was, nor am I completely certain what office 7 he represented. 8 Q When you say commissioned officer, 9 in the military? 10 A No, the -- and I'm not sure how 11 it's done in the Clinton White House these 12 days, but the special assistants to the 13 President, deputy assistant to the President 14 and assistant to the President are considered 15 commissioned officers and are so named and 16 presented with a framed document so stating 17 the various perks that go with an illustrious 18 position such as a commissioned officer. 19 Q Just to clarify, Mr. Carney was 20 with the Bush White House? 21 A Yes, uh-huh. 22 Q What were his duties and 323 1 responsibilities, to the best of your 2 knowledge, just generally speaking? 3 A I'm sorry, I just don't have a firm 4 recollection of what his duties and 5 responsibilities were. 6 Q As a special assistant, he would 7 work directly with the President? 8 A Generally speaking most 9 commissioned officers in the Bush White House 10 had routine interaction with the President or 11 his immediate staff. 12 I believe, and I'm certain I'm 13 correct, that he had something to do with the 14 political office, whether he was assigned 15 directly to the political office or not I'm 16 not sure. 17 Q Mr. Carney was not a hold-over 18 employee in the Clinton White House, was he? 19 A No. 20 Q He was not a political appointee of 21 the Clinton Administration, was he? 22 A No. 324 1 Q I turn your attention to the 2 listing for yourself on Exhibit 7 wherein it 3 says Linda R. Tripp and then it lists right 4 next to that documents which were contained 5 in your FBI file, it lists one FBI letter and 6 one memo. 7 A Uh-huh. 8 Q Do you have any knowledge as to 9 what those documents might be? 10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form and 11 characterization. 12 THE WITNESS: May I answer? 13 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Sure. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Yes. 16 A I don't. I do know, though, that I 17 was told by an FBI agent, not Gary Aldrich 18 and not Dennis Sculimbene, I think his name 19 is, but someone, a field FBI officer during 20 my background investigation, which took place 21 in the very beginning of my Bush White House 22 tenure, in a lengthy conversation with this 325 1 gentleman he mentioned raw data, FBI, to me, 2 and led me to believe that the now infamous 3 Greenwood Lake matter was in the raw data, 4 and I explained to him on the phone that that 5 had been, in my judgment, in my 6 understanding -- had been expunged and was 7 completely bogus in terms of the validity of 8 the case and he led me to believe that that 9 was true, that he understood that to be true. 10 Remember that I've received nothing 11 but top clearance, top secret clearances all 12 along. 13 So, anything that would have been 14 in raw data that would not have panned out to 15 preclude the issuance of a top secret or 16 higher access clearance, which I then had -- 17 would certainly have surfaced at that point 18 had it had validity. 19 Q When you talk about the Greenwood 20 Lake matter, are you referring to the alleged 21 arrest record that has become very 22 controversial with regard to release of 326 1 documentation by the Department of Defense? 2 A Right, and which I have always 3 stated was not an arrest based on guidance I 4 had and which I would still do today. 5 Q Prior to joining the Department of 6 Defense, did you ever fill out documentation 7 concerning your employment at the White House 8 where you listed that Greenwood Lake alleged 9 arrest? 10 A No. I certainly filled out the 11 extensive background questionnaire, the very, 12 very lengthy, involved background 13 questionnaire which was far lengthier than 14 any other I had ever done, which was a 15 prerequisite for even entering the West Wing 16 of the White House as a staff member in the 17 Bush White House. 18 That investigation generally took a 19 minimum of three months and at the conclusion 20 of that time, you were either issued or not a 21 West Wing clearance. 22 Q Specifically did you ever list the 327 1 alleged arrest at Greenwood Lake? 2 A No, uh-uh. 3 Q Did you ever mention the arrest at 4 Greenwood Lake with anyone, FBI agents or 5 otherwise? 6 A Well, as I said, with this agent 7 with whom I spoke on the phone. I had at 8 that time been assigned to the office of 9 media affairs in the Old Executive Office 10 Building and was awaiting the outcome, 11 frankly, of the security clearance, because I 12 had been hired to work in the West Wing. 13 But it was very strict in the Bush 14 White House, there was no such -- we didn't 15 have volunteers or interns or uncleared 16 personnel working in close proximity to the 17 President of the United States in the Bush 18 White House. 19 Therefore, regardless of the fact 20 that I had come there from Defense and had a 21 top secret and higher clearance, they started 22 from scratch. 328 1 So, yes, I had this conversation 2 with the field agent, FBI agent about 3 Greenwood Lake and it was not a question of 4 whether I had answered yes or no. It was 5 more about the raw data that was contained in 6 the file. 7 Q Do you know whether William Kennedy 8 had access to raw FBI data? 9 A I don't know. 10 Q Specifically with regard to the 11 question I asked you it lists next to your 12 name on Exhibit 7 one FBI letter, do you know 13 what that FBI letter is? 14 A I don't. 15 Q Do you know what the one memo is? 16 A I do not. 17 Q Have you ever requested your FBI 18 file? 19 THE WITNESS: Have we? 20 MR. ZACCAGNINI: No. 21 THE WITNESS: No. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 329 1 Q Have you ever requested any FBI 2 data related to your FBI file? 3 A I know I haven't. I can only speak 4 for myself. I don't know what the attorneys 5 have done. 6 Q Of course we know by virtue of this 7 lawsuit and other investigations that 8 information was released by the Pentagon 9 concerning this alleged arrest record at 10 Greenwood Lake. 11 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection as to form. 12 MS. WEISMANN: Objection as to 13 form. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm just laying a 15 foundation. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q We also know that that information 18 was released by Clifford Bernath upon the 19 request of Kenneth Bacon. 20 MS. WEISMANN: Continuing 21 objection. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 330 1 Q Do you have any knowledge as to why 2 these individuals would have released your 3 alleged arrest record to the public? 4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 5 THE WITNESS: Well, they didn't 6 release it to the public. It's my 7 understanding that they released it to a 8 member of the media. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Right, that's what I mean by the 11 public. That member was Jane Mayer, correct? 12 A Yes, Jane Mayer of the New Yorker 13 Magazine. I was familiar with the fact that 14 Ken Bacon knew Jane Mayer. I knew Jane 15 Mayer's name prior to this incident simply 16 because she was known to be very good friends 17 with Sidney Blumenthal and had a history with 18 Ken Bacon, I didn't know what that was. She 19 was one of several that Monica Lewinsky had 20 actually mentioned to me as being friends of 21 Mr. Bacon's. 22 I can't tell you with any certainty 331 1 why these were releases, I can only tell you 2 how things occurred in that directorate as it 3 pertained to any information of a personal 4 nature and certainly more specifically as it 5 pertained to anything having any impact at 6 all on the White House. 7 I can tell you as a senior staffer 8 in that directorate what I observed to be 9 true in terms of the release of information. 10 Q Tell us what that is. 11 A In my tenure in Defense, I don't 12 believe I have ever witnessed the casual 13 release of any information. The Privacy Act 14 was stressed to us literally on a daily 15 basis. 16 My program, in particular, dealt 17 with the public and with sensitive 18 information, private information, personal 19 information that we solicited from these 20 people of a personal and financial nature, 21 for instance -- and medical, that we 22 protected jealously, on a need-to-know basis 332 1 to implement the program. 2 But far beyond the small scope of 3 my program, the Freedom of Information -- 4 excuse me, the Freedom of Information Office, 5 until very recently, was a part of the Office 6 of the Secretary of Defense Public Affairs 7 Office and it was under the direct 8 supervision of Clifford Bernath. 9 The Privacy Act information and 10 adherence to same, was administered through 11 the Office of the General Counsel in terms of 12 that being the -- in our minds, whether this 13 is true or not, we were told it was OGC which 14 administered Privacy Act. 15 But we literally had to include 16 that statement on most documents, that the 17 Privacy Act of whatever year must be adhered 18 to, that kind of thing, and there's a 19 statement. We were all very cognizant of 20 that at all times, certainly they were. 21 So, that and any time White House 22 was involved on any level it was a subject of 333 1 several conference calls daily, not to 2 mention routine telephone calls back and 3 forth to other staff members, but nothing 4 with any impact, and I mean it didn't matter 5 how tiny. 6 Anything that might impact the 7 White House or the Commander in Chief or the 8 Administration as it may relate to Defense 9 was always discussed on either a full cabinet 10 level press level conference call each day or 11 one of several other conversations routinely 12 scheduled. 13 Q So, Mr. Bacon knew that the Privacy 14 Act applied? 15 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 16 MS. WEISMANN: Objection as to 17 form. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Based on your knowledge. 20 A He certainly led us to believe he 21 knew. If not, he was doing a good job of 22 acting. He was our boss. 334 1 Q How did he lead you to believe that 2 he knew the Privacy Act applied to the 3 release of information? 4 A He said so, he has said so on many 5 occasions, as did Mr. Bernath, who was very 6 proud of the fact that part of his area of 7 responsibility involved that very sensitive 8 information. 9 Q You worked for Mr. Bacon, correct? 10 A He was my, I don't know what you 11 call it, he was my ultimate supervisor and I 12 believe he signs off on my appraisals. But 13 my direct supervisor, I had several, but 14 Clifford Bernath was in that chain. 15 Q Mr. Bacon was, as well? 16 A Yeah. 17 Q Did you detect any hostility from 18 Mr. Bacon or Mr. Bernath after the Lewinsky 19 scandal broke? 20 A Well, I don't know that I've seen 21 either person since that story broke. I know 22 that I had some interaction with Clifford 335 1 Bernath, which was not completely surprising 2 to me considering our history, so. 3 Q What was that interaction, briefly? 4 A The clarification of a flex place 5 work agreement and some guidance on an 6 assignment. 7 Q Do you have any opinion as to why 8 Mr. Bernath may have released information 9 concerning your alleged arrest record to 10 Ms. Mayer? 11 MS. WEISMANN: Objection as to 12 form. 13 THE WITNESS: My opinion is that 14 Mr. Bernath owes his -- let's remember the 15 political make-up of the office from whence I 16 came. It is virtually, at least 90 percent 17 or was at that point, manned by politicals. 18 Clifford Bernath likes to claim 19 that he is a career civil servant, but he 20 owes his very SEShood and his startling 21 escalation in rank to the Clinton 22 Administration and, in fact, was a political 336 1 appointee SES during the first term. He had 2 been a Lieutenant Colonel and then a civilian 3 in the career civil service. 4 So, I believe he would have been an 5 enthusiastic foot soldier. He certainly owes 6 his livelihood and his career advancement to 7 this Administration. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q In the ordinary course of your 10 having worked for Mr. Bacon and Mr. Bernath, 11 do either of them have contact with the White 12 House from time to time? 13 A Mr. Bacon had daily contact with 14 the White House of which I was aware. More 15 than, more than daily, actually, in terms of 16 frequency of phone calls. 17 Mr. Bernath, yes, had contact with 18 the White House, but it was far less. He was 19 not the one who participated, in my opinion, 20 on a routine level because he was political, 21 but not. 22 He was not one of the inner circle, 337 1 so to speak. He was a foot soldier, by that 2 I mean he certainly did what he was told and 3 I witnessed that for several years. 4 But the politicals of whom I spoke 5 earlier would have been Ken Bacon and Willie 6 Blacklow, he was later replaced by Doug 7 Wilson. 8 Q Who in the ordinary course was 9 Mr. Bacon in contact with? 10 MR. ZACCAGNINI: With respect to 11 what? 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q With respect to the White House. 14 A He was in routine contact with the 15 NSC, certainly, the National Security Council 16 press operation. 17 Q Who, as individuals? 18 A I'm not sure except I know that 19 P.J. Crowley, Colonel Crowley had been a 20 former aide to Clifford Bernath and then to 21 Ken Bacon and they had placed him actually in 22 the NSC, so that was someone with whom they 338 1 stayed in very close contact. Mike McCurry 2 certainly in the press office. 3 Those are the contacts for which I 4 had firsthand knowledge. Monica Lewinsky has 5 told me of several others. 6 Q What did she tell you? 7 A That Mike McCurry had routine and 8 frequent contact with others, other senior 9 staff members of the White House and 10 Mrs. Clinton's -- I should say what is 11 considered to be Mrs. Clinton's staff, the 12 Sidney Blumenthal element, especially after 13 he arrived, and he came relatively late, I 14 didn't know him. 15 But Monica had tried to get a job 16 with Mr. Blumenthal and she had hoped that 17 Mr. Bacon could help her to that end because 18 she knew he knew him. 19 Q So is it that she surmised that 20 Mr. Bacon talking to Mr. McCurry would then 21 have contacts with Mrs. Clinton's staff that 22 could get her -- 339 1 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 2 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 3 THE WITNESS: No. Remember, again, 4 this is only what Monica told me. So, he 5 spoke relatively routinely with Paul Begala, 6 I believe, with -- 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q He, meaning Bacon? 9 A Yes. With Sidney Blumenthal, and 10 it was Monica's feeling that his contacts, 11 other than in the press operations of the 12 National Security Council and of the White 13 House, were with people of Mrs. Clinton's 14 staff. 15 Q Do you know specifically who on 16 Mrs. Clinton's staff? 17 A I don't remember. 18 Q So we've got P.J. Crowley, we've 19 got Mike McCurry, we've got Paul Begala, 20 we've got Sidney Blumenthal and persons on 21 Mrs. Clinton's staff that Mr. Bacon was in 22 routine contact with? 340 1 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form. 2 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection, form. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q You can respond. 5 A Yes. 6 Q Was Mr. Bacon ever in contact with 7 Harold Ickes? 8 A I don't know. 9 Q Ann Lewis? 10 A Actually, I believe yes, I think 11 Ann Lewis was one for whom Monica had 12 actually mentioned that that was one of 13 Hillary's people. 14 Q Are you aware of Mr. Bacon ever 15 being in contact with James Carville? 16 A I don't know. 17 Q Do you know Mr. Bacon ever being in 18 contact with attorneys of Williams and 19 Connolly? 20 A I don't know. 21 Q Or anybody at Williams and 22 Connolly? 341 1 A No, I really don't know. 2 Q Do you know whether Mr. Bacon was 3 ever in contact with an individual by the 4 name of Terry Linzner or his company IGI? 5 A I've certainly heard of them and I 6 don't know that, no. 7 Q Do you know whether Mr. Bacon was 8 ever in contact with a Jack Palladino, 9 another investigator? 10 A I don't know. 11 Q Anthony Pelicano? 12 A That's a new one, I don't know that 13 name. Are they all Italian? 14 Q They may know you. 15 A My trash disappears on a regular 16 basis, so I'm sure they do. 17 Q Who is Willie Blacklow, what 18 specific position did he occupy? 19 A He was the third in command, so to 20 speak, so you had Ken Bacon, he was the 21 assistant secretary of defense for -- and 22 became that, by the way, Assistant Secretary 342 1 of Defense for Public Affairs after hearings 2 on the Hill. 3 Prior to that he had been, his 4 title was the Assistant to the Secretary of 5 Defense and those words, or the lack thereof, 6 have a significant difference in your 7 position in the Pentagon. 8 Then Cliff Bernath was the 9 Principal Deputy Assistant and Willie 10 Blacklow, now Doug Wilson, is the Assistant, 11 actually, Doug Wilson was Willie Blacklow's 12 replacement and was an Assistant -- yeah, 13 Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for 14 Public Affairs. 15 I'm told recently that he has been 16 promoted to Cliff Bernath's former position 17 when Cliff Bernath left. 18 Q Have you ever had any contact with 19 Jane Mayer? 20 A No. 21 Q But you are aware Mr. Bacon being 22 in contact with her from time to time? 343 1 A I was aware prior to this. 2 Q Prior to the incident that released 3 your alleged arrest record? 4 A Right. 5 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 6 THE WITNESS: Well, prior to my 7 being made publicly aware, yeah. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q How were you aware of that? 10 A From Monica. 11 Q What did she tell you about that? 12 A But it was not in conjunction with 13 this incident. It was -- she handled his 14 telephone calls, she handled his calendar. 15 She was rather close friends with Darcy and 16 apparently Mrs. Bacon, Darcy Bacon, knew Jane 17 Mayer, as well. 18 Q Was Mr. Bacon ever in contact with 19 Bill Hamilton? 20 A I don't know the name. 21 Q Bill Hamilton is the husband of 22 Jane Mayer and he is the national editor of 344 1 the Washington Post. 2 A I don't know. That's a very good 3 question. I have no idea. Doesn't ring a 4 bell. 5 Q Have you or anyone around you ever 6 been contacted by the Washington Post 7 concerning this incident? 8 A Oh, I'm sure, haven't we. It would 9 be easier to name those that haven't. 10 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Just tell him what 11 you know. 12 THE WITNESS: Well, I mean I don't 13 keep track of the press calls, so I don't 14 know. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q But you never knew that Bill 17 Hamilton was the husband of Jane Mayer? 18 A I think I read it somewhere, 19 actually. 20 Q You never knew that he was the 21 national editor of the Washington Post? 22 A I didn't know until I read it in an 345 1 accounting somewhere. 2 Q You have read several unflattering 3 articles about yourself in the Washington 4 Post, did you not? 5 A Oh, definitely. Certainly not 6 exclusively. 7 Q You've read them in the national 8 section of that newspaper, have you not? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Turning your attention to the safe 11 that you saw in Bernie Nussbaum's office, the 12 Vince Foster safe. 13 A Correct. 14 Q Specifically, can you tell me 15 everything that you've seen in that safe? 16 I know you testified as to some 17 files that you saw last time, but are there 18 things that you didn't mention that you had 19 seen in that safe? 20 MS. SHAPIRO: I'll assert the same 21 cautionary objection and instruction that I 22 made the last time about attorney-client 346 1 issues and national security to identify any 2 things that are in the safe. 3 MR. ZACCAGNINI: You may answer. 4 THE WITNESS: Okay, we routinely 5 kept anything that had to be maintained 6 overnight from the National Security Council 7 in there, so generally speaking there would 8 be, and I don't have a specific recollection 9 of this particular day of what NSC folder was 10 in there, but we did typically and routinely 11 keep the National Security Council 12 information in that safe. 13 Bill Kennedy's file was in that 14 safe. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Which file, what you believe to be 17 his FBI file? 18 A I'm not clear on Bill Kennedy's 19 file. I don't have a good -- I'd rather not 20 say what file, I don't know. 21 Q Did it look like the Dale file that 22 you saw in that safe? 347 1 A I just don't remember. 2 Q Physically? 3 A It was different. I should say it 4 didn't look like, it wasn't in the same area 5 and it wasn't, it didn't jump out at me as 6 being the same. Could have been, don't know. 7 His was relatively thick. 8 Q Anything else? 9 A Well, I had said I believe that 10 Chris Emory and Billy Dale's file was in 11 there, and then I believe I saw something 12 else that I had not appreciated or understood 13 as to what it was I saw in there. I think -- 14 can I? 15 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Sure. 16 THE WITNESS: Many, many, many 17 months later watching TV one night on the 18 news I saw a photo superimposed as a graphic 19 on the news of the Rose billing records. 20 I have never seen a billing record. 21 I didn't know that I had ever seen a billing 22 record. I wouldn't know a billing record if 348 1 it hit me on the head. I'm not a legal 2 person and I was never exposed other than in 3 the counsel's office to lawyers on a 4 day-to-day basis, certainly not in terms of 5 billing records. 6 I believe I saw what I now believe 7 to be the infamous billing records in that 8 safe. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Did you report that to Independent 11 Counsel Starr's office at the time? 12 A Oh, they didn't ask me those 13 questions, anything about this. 14 Q You previously testified in some 15 House proceedings that you saw documents 16 removed from Foster's office and that Debra 17 Gorham said they were going to the residence 18 because they were personal files of Foster, 19 Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton; is that 20 correct? 21 A That is true. 22 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy. 349 1 THE WITNESS: Yes. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q What more can you tell us about 4 what you observed those documents to be? 5 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection, form. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Is there anything else you can add 8 to that? 9 THE WITNESS: No. It was one or 10 two boxes and when I saw them, they were 11 closed. I mean I didn't have any way to tell 12 what was in the boxes and I wasn't really 13 concerned at the time. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Those were coming out of Foster's 16 office? 17 A Yes, coming out of Foster's office 18 in the hands of Tom Castleton, who was 19 escorted and directed by Maggie Williams, who 20 was Mrs. Clinton's Chief of Staff at the 21 time. 22 Q Did you observe what kind of boxes 350 1 they were? Were they litigation boxes? 2 A You know, I don't even know what a 3 litigation box is. 4 Q Let me just show you a box here. 5 We'll let the court reporter photograph it. 6 Did they look anything like this 7 box that I'm identifying here? 8 A You know, I was asked extensively 9 during the Senate White Water hearings to 10 guesstimate the size of the box or boxes and 11 to this day, I can't. 12 I can tell you that Tom Castleton 13 is carrying it, and he's about 5, 8, young 14 man, 24 at the time, I believe, somewhere in 15 there, was bent over carrying it and he 16 carried it like this (indicating) as though 17 it had -- he didn't carry it like this 18 (indicating). 19 The reason I paid attention during 20 that time, and I essentially supervised Tom 21 Castleton during that period and he was 22 disappearing. I had no idea where he was 351 1 going with these things. 2 He later commented to me what 3 Ms. Williams had explained to him as why -- 4 as to why these boxes were going to the 5 residence and he so testified later and was 6 contradicted, but what he told me 7 contemporaneously was the same as what he 8 testified to. 9 Q Let me back up to what you believe 10 were the White House billing records. 11 When did you observe them in that 12 safe? 13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to 14 relevancy. 15 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN. 17 Q You can respond? 18 A The very day that I saw the files, 19 a bunch of the files that I believed -- well, 20 that I was since come to believe were the FBI 21 files. 22 Q Of the Travel Office and others? 352 1 A Well, the only Travel Office one 2 that I remember seeing is Billy Dale's. 3 Q But the others looked like Billy 4 Dale's? 5 A They did. 6 Q During the time that you worked in 7 the White House, what was the reputation of 8 Hillary Clinton's involvement with day-to-day 9 White House activities, if any? 10 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection, form. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q You can respond. In other words, 13 was there a general understanding of what 14 Mrs. Clinton did in terms of White House 15 matters, if anything? 16 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection, form. 17 THE WITNESS: Well, I think that 18 there may have been different levels of 19 perception based on perspective. 20 I mean remember that I first became 21 exposed to members of the senior staff of the 22 Clinton Administration immediately after the 353 1 beginning of the first term and so in working 2 in the immediate office of the President, I 3 came to know Bruce Lindsay, Nancy Hernrich, 4 President Clinton, Mack McClarity and then 5 Vince Foster and Bernie Nussbaum. 6 I can tell you that the impression 7 that I was given at that early date, 8 routinely, was that Mrs. Clinton was a force 9 to be reckoned with and her staff certainly 10 was, as well. I was very -- from earliest 11 days on, told that her staff had as much 12 clout as the President's staff and that we 13 were to respond immediately. 14 I saw that in day-to-day activity 15 at the White House and then over time it 16 became more and more obvious to me that she 17 was certainly much more involved in many 18 things. 19 My only basis for comparison had 20 been Mrs. Bush in terms of First Lady 21 activities and it was completely, completely 22 different. 354 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q What specifically did you come to 3 understand Mrs. Clinton was involved in? 4 A Well, certainly health care, which 5 with Ira Magaziner's shop, I mean that was 6 obviously a big, big project at that time. 7 But beyond that, it was -- it was 8 different when I was downstairs in the Office 9 of the President and then upstairs in the 10 Counsel's Office where I saw different, 11 different roles, shall we say. 12 Q What were the differences in the 13 roles? 14 A When I came up to the Counsel's 15 Office, and of course the Counsel suite is 16 directly adjacent to what was, I don't know 17 that it still is, Mrs. Clinton's West Wing 18 second floor office. 19 Her interaction and visiting and 20 phone calling between Vince's office and hers 21 was routine. It was regular. It was 22 constant. 355 1 Q Do you know what the calling was 2 about? 3 A Different, many different issues. 4 I did not know early on that it had anything 5 to do with the Travel Office until much 6 later. 7 Q Did Vince Foster ever discuss with 8 you his contact with Mrs. Clinton? 9 A Oh, only in terms of -- in general, 10 in general terms, not, he certainly didn't 11 divulge anything. 12 Q I take it that Mr. Kennedy also had 13 frequent contact with Mrs. Clinton? 14 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection, form. 15 THE WITNESS: Well, yes, he did, as 16 did Cliff Sloan, Steve Neuwirth and Neil 17 Eggleston. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Would you say it was almost daily 20 contact? 21 A I would. Later told Klein. 22 Q The contact dealt with matters 356 1 concerning White House functions, among 2 others? 3 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 4 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q You can respond. 7 A Well, I'm just trying to think, I 8 mean certainly the time that I noticed it the 9 most was during the aftermath of the Travel 10 Office firing and then the Vince Foster 11 so-called suicide and then White Water, the 12 pink sweater press conference, that kind of 13 thing. 14 So the events blur, there were so 15 many. But constant contact, I mean we saw 16 her all the time. 17 Q The White House phone system, does 18 it record internal calls? 19 A I don't know. 20 Q Did you ever take a telephone 21 message for Mrs. Clinton for any of these 22 people? 357 1 A Yes, several times. 2 Q How did you record those telephone 3 messages? 4 A Well, it would depend. Generally 5 speaking, if Mrs. Clinton called, you found 6 the principal for whom she was trying to have 7 a conversation, I mean you didn't just say 8 we'll get back to you. 9 Frequently she would call from the 10 plane or from a remote location, otherwise if 11 she were next door, she might just walk in. 12 But in terms of logging, we 13 eventually adopted the same software that Deb 14 Coyle, the President's personal secretary and 15 also Bruce Lindsay's assistant used to record 16 all the incoming phone calls that were not 17 taken. These never included calls that were 18 taken. We didn't keep that log. 19 Q Did you ever use the traditional 20 telephone message books with carbons? 21 A We had used those before, uh-huh, 22 lots of those. 358 1 Q Did you ever record a call from 2 Mrs. Clinton where you wrote down the subject 3 of her call? 4 A Several times, I'm sure. Remember, 5 it's interesting, because most times if 6 Mrs. Clinton were placing a call from, say, 7 the Old Executive Office Building, she would 8 have, at the time I believe Evelyn Lieberman 9 or Maggie Williams place the call for her. 10 So when I say that I took messages 11 for Mrs. Clinton, it does not mean that each 12 time she made the call I spoke to 13 Mrs. Clinton. I would have spoken to one of 14 her staff. 15 Q But you did speak with Mrs. Clinton 16 from time to time? 17 A Oh, yeah. 18 Q Was she very domineering in her 19 insistence to talk to people? 20 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection. 21 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 22 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 359 1 THE WITNESS: She was always 2 pleasant, I mean scary, but pleasant. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q What do you mean by "scary?" 5 A Well, I mean she ruled the school. 6 We knew. 7 Q What do you mean by "ruled the 8 school"? 9 A It was not -- it was different. It 10 was just not what I had seen before with a 11 First Lady. She was every bit as 12 Presidential as he was, and we treated her 13 that way. 14 Q Based on your time at the White 15 House Counsel's Office, was it your 16 understanding that Mr. Foster and Mr. Kennedy 17 and others took orders at the direction of 18 Mrs. Clinton? 19 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 20 THE WITNESS: Can I answer that? 21 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Sure, based on 22 your knowledge. 360 1 THE WITNESS: Say it again. 2 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Based upon your 3 knowledge, what you know. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q I'm also asking you with regard to 6 your impression, what your sense, impression 7 was? 8 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection, form. 9 MS. SHAPIRO: Join the objection. 10 THE WITNESS: It's far more than an 11 impression. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q All right, well, go ahead and 14 respond. 15 A I mean I never saw Bernie Nussbaum 16 other than -- we had ceremonial visits when a 17 Supreme Court Justice retired or something of 18 that nature. I never saw Bernie have 19 interaction with the President, except when 20 he was fired. 21 Vince very seldom that I know of 22 had office-to-office correspondence with the 361 1 President or phone calls, except the night 2 before he died when I took the phone call. 3 But the interaction was all lateral 4 to Hillary's office, sideways I always 5 thought of it, because that's where the 6 interaction was. 7 So whether they took orders or 8 whether they were just -- I don't know, I 9 can't tell you. I can only tell you that I 10 never saw on a routine basis or even on an 11 infrequent basis, I can't remember times that 12 the direction came from the President's 13 office. 14 Q Is it your belief that Foster and 15 Kennedy took orders from Hillary Clinton, do 16 you believe that? 17 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q You can respond. 20 MS. SHAPIRO: Join the objection. 21 THE WITNESS: Yes. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 362 1 Q What do you base that on, other 2 than just the interaction, if anything? 3 A I base it on daily, hourly exposure 4 in that office. 5 Q Did you ever see Mrs. Clinton have 6 a meeting in the White House Counsel's 7 Office, attend a meeting? 8 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 9 THE WITNESS: Yes. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q When did you observe such a 12 meeting, was there more than one? 13 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 14 THE WITNESS: Yes. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q How many apparently did you 17 observe? 18 A I have a distinct recollection of 19 two. I believe there were others that I 20 don't know that we would classify as 21 meetings. So it's hard to tell. 22 But in terms of a meeting where she 363 1 came in, closed the door and stayed long and 2 there were more than one, more than one other 3 person in the room, I'd call that a meeting, 4 I can remember two. 5 Q When did the first such meeting 6 occur, approximately? 7 A Prior to the Travel Office being 8 summarily dismissed. 9 Q Who did she meet with and in whose 10 room? 11 A I saw her actually meet with Vince 12 Foster and Bill Kennedy in Vince's office and 13 on that very day, she also met with Bernie in 14 his office. 15 Q Are those the two meetings? 16 A No, those I count as one meeting. 17 Q Both of those meetings were behind 18 closed doors? 19 A Yes. 20 Q How long did each of those meetings 21 take, approximately? 22 A I can't tell you. All I can tell 364 1 you is that my impression was the one with 2 Vince and Bill Kennedy lasted longer and the 3 one with Bernie seemed relatively short. 4 Q The second meeting that you have 5 not identified yet, when did that occur? 6 A That occurred when Mrs. Clinton 7 returned from, I believe she had been in 8 Little Rock when Mr. Foster died and upon her 9 return she came in to our office and closed 10 the door and was in with Bernie for some 11 time. 12 Q Anyone else in that meeting? 13 A I don't remember now. 14 Q Did you ever observe Mrs. Clinton 15 having any meetings when you worked in the 16 Office of the President? 17 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection, form. 18 THE WITNESS: Down there? 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Yes. 21 A No. 22 Q Did Mrs. Clinton ever visit the 365 1 Office of the Presidency while you worked 2 there. 3 A Frequently, yeah. 4 Q Frequently? 5 A Uh-huh. 6 Q What was the reason for her 7 meetings? 8 A Oh, I don't know, I never asked. 9 She would pop in and out. I wouldn't say 10 meetings, maybe I misspoke. She would pop in 11 and out relatively frequently, but I don't 12 recall having her on the calendar. 13 Q Who did she talk with when she 14 popped in and out? 15 A Well, certainly her husband, Nancy 16 Hernrich, sometimes Betty. It would depend 17 who was down there at the time. I'm just 18 thinking sometimes Susan Thomas was visiting 19 and would hang out in Bruce Lindsay's area, 20 for instance, for several hours and 21 Mrs. Clinton would be there and it was far 22 less formal than I'm making it sound, I 366 1 think, on those occasions. 2 Q Do you believe that FBI files had 3 anything to do with Vince Foster's death? 4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 5 THE WITNESS: Oh, heavens, I have 6 no idea. I don't know. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Your own belief? 9 A I would probably say no. 10 Q On what basis? 11 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form. 12 THE WITNESS: Maybe in my own mind 13 I didn't know the significance of FBI files 14 during that time frame, so in my own mind, 15 I've justified events based on other pieces 16 of information that I may have had during 17 that time frame. 18 But FBI files weren't on my mind 19 certainly at that time, so I never really 20 have given it a lot of thought. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q But you don't know whether 367 1 Mr. Foster's death was related to FBI files, 2 you don't know one way or the other, do you? 3 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection, form. 4 THE WITNESS: I don't know that 5 anyone knows. I mean, I don't know anything 6 about Mr. Foster's death, frankly. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q But it is your opinion that 9 Mr. Foster had access to FBI files? 10 A I firmly believe that he had FBI 11 files on his desk. 12 Q You firmly believe that he had FBI 13 files on his desk up to the time he died, 14 correct? 15 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 16 THE WITNESS: Yes. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Have you seen recent reports on the 19 Drudge report that news stories are being 20 leaked by the Washington Post to the White 21 House, in advance of their publication? Have 22 you become aware of any such reports from 368 1 Matt Drudge? 2 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form. 3 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'll object as to 4 relevancy, but you can answer. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q You can respond. 7 A I'm still unclear as to what your 8 question is. 9 Am I aware of the Washington Post 10 leaking stories to -- 11 Q In advance to the White House as 12 reported by Matt Drudge? 13 A Well, that's completely 14 commonplace. 15 Q What leads you to believe that? 16 A Because it happened, frequently. I 17 mean we would almost uniformly count on a 18 Washington Post heads-up prior to 19 publication. 20 Q Where did you experience the 21 Washington Post heads-up? 22 A In the Counsel's Office and in the 369 1 President's Office and only by that I mean as 2 it has to do with Bruce Lindsay, because 3 often he -- this always occurred late in the 4 evening. There were times I even spent the 5 night on the couch in the Counsel's Office 6 because I couldn't get home because we were 7 waiting to see, if what we had been told by 8 the Washington Post was ultimately how it 9 appeared in print, and the first issues came 10 out late at night. 11 Q Who was it that gave the heads-up 12 from the Washington Post? 13 A I think Bruce Lindsay was the 14 contact at the White House and I don't know 15 with whom he spoke at the Washington Post, 16 but he would run upstairs and keep us posted 17 and then we would wait for the issue. 18 Q Did he say it was an editor who 19 contacted him? 20 A It was someone, I do remember it 21 was someone high up. It wasn't some gum-shoe 22 reporter, but I just don't remember who it 370 1 was and I actually do think if I thought 2 about it I probably could come up with a 3 name, but I'd have to really think. 4 Q Does the name Bob Kaiser ring a 5 bell? 6 A Not right now, uh-uh. 7 Q Leonard Downey? 8 A I -- you know what, I'm not 9 comfortable saying yes right now, right at 10 this moment. I haven't really thought about 11 this in a long time. 12 Q These were on a variety of 13 subjects, the contact was made with Lindsay? 14 A Yes, specifically I'm recalling the 15 Travel Office and White Water as it escalated 16 in the December '94 time frame, was it '94 17 or '93, December '93 and the Janet Reno 18 appointing of a special prosecutor, that kind 19 of thing. 20 Q Was there any contact from the 21 Washington Post that you know of concerning 22 Filegate? 371 1 A Concerning Filegate? 2 Q Yes. 3 A I don't know, I was long gone by 4 then. 5 Q We'll ask if you remember the name 6 of the person, if you could provide it to us 7 either during or after the deposition. 8 A Okay. 9 Q Were there any other reporters that 10 you know of that gave heads-up to the White 11 House? Any other press people? 12 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to the 13 relevancy, continuing objection. 14 THE WITNESS: Andrea Mitchell 15 routinely with Bruce Lindsay. I can only 16 tell you on issues that impacted the 17 Counsel's Office, because it was those, it 18 may well have been many more or fewer, I 19 don't know, but I know that those issues that 20 the Counsel's Office had press interest in we 21 would hear from Bruise what he had heard from 22 his contacts. 372 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q At the time that you worked in the 3 White House and became aware of these 4 contacts by the Washington Post with Bruce 5 Lindsay, the heads-up, were you also aware 6 that Williams and Connolly represented 7 Mr. and Mrs. Clinton? 8 A Oh, sure. 9 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Were you aware that Williams and 12 Connolly represents the Washington Post? 13 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 14 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 15 THE WITNESS: No. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q I'm going to ask you just a 18 question focused on this case about the tape 19 recordings that you made of conversations 20 with Monica Lewinsky. 21 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection. There 22 will be no response to any of those 373 1 inquiries. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, the question is 3 going to be put on the record, anyway, and I 4 don't think you'll have a problem with it, 5 Mr. Zaccagnini. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Are there anything on the 8 recordations that you discussed with Monica 9 Lewinsky that refer or relate in any way to 10 the Filegate controversy? 11 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'll instruct my 12 client not to respond to that question. 13 She'll assert her Fifth Amendment privilege. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Just for purposes of 15 the record, just let it be clear that we will 16 request from the Court access to those tapes. 17 Would you be willing, 18 Mr. Zaccagnini, to submit them in camera to 19 the Court to hear those portions that relate 20 to Filegate? 21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 22 MR. MAZUR: Objection. 374 1 MR. ZACCAGNINI: You can pose that 2 question to me in a written form, 3 Mr. Klayman. I'll respond then. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Let's go, let me ask a few more 6 questions here on the public record. 7 During the time you worked in the 8 White House Counsel's Office, were you aware 9 of the White House Counsel keeping files, I'm 10 not referring to FBI files, but just files 11 generally on perceived adversaries of the 12 Administration? 13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form and 14 relevancy. 15 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 16 MR. MAZUR: Objection. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q You can respond. 19 A I have no firsthand knowledge at 20 all of perceived friends or adversaries. I 21 can only say what I was aware of -- with 22 People Base, which started, in my opinion, 375 1 what I saw was would have been in the 2 immediate Office of the President maintained 3 by Nancy Hernrich and I'm assuming those were 4 friends on that database. 5 Q Friends of Bill? 6 A Yeah. 7 Q Were you aware of Mr. Joel Klein or 8 anyone keeping files on people like Ken 9 Starr? 10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q You can respond. 13 A I'm a little hesitant to answer 14 that because I believe that Joel Klein, one 15 of his jobs was to keep information on people 16 who were perceived to be enemies of the White 17 House, and I complained about that very topic 18 to Bruce Lindsay, who at that time I thought 19 was unaware of this. It was during that 20 conversation that Bruce Lindsay said that 21 that kind of talk could get me destroyed. 22 Q When did that conversation take 376 1 place? 2 A Well, it was long after, I'm trying 3 to think, I think Joel Klein came in December 4 of '93 and I was out of there in the May time 5 frame of '94, I moved over to the Old 6 Executive Office Building to start my job 7 hunt. So it was between December and May. 8 Q Are you aware of Mr. Klein 9 disseminating some of that information to 10 persons outside of the White House? 11 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 12 THE WITNESS: No, I don't know 13 that. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q You don't know one way or the 16 other? 17 A I don't know. 18 Q How did you come to believe that 19 Klein kept such information? 20 A In several ways, but there came a 21 time when I was approached by the Office of 22 the Independent Counsel, I don't know if that 377 1 was during the time of Mr. Starr's, Judge 2 Starr's predecessor, and they actually came 3 and visited me at the White House and asked 4 for a tour of Mr. Foster's office. 5 So actually, I think the first time 6 I became aware of the Office of the 7 Independent Counsel, or whatever it was 8 called at that time, being targeted as an 9 entity that would have information compiled 10 about, it was after that visit and prior to 11 Judge Starr's appointment, certainly, and 12 then later with his appointment. 13 Joel Klein and his secretary often 14 spoke about it, that this was part of his 15 job. He was the White Water -- he was 16 brought on to manage White Water. Bernie was 17 out of that loop completely, just completely, 18 and Joel Klein was the -- 19 Q It was part of his job to manage 20 the various controversies? 21 A As it pertained to the Counsel's 22 Office, yeah, or as they did. 378 1 Q Who was Mr. Klein's secretary that 2 said that to you? 3 A Julie something, I can't remember 4 her name now. I think she went with him to 5 Justice. She came with him from the law firm 6 from whence he came. 7 Q She went to the Justice Department? 8 A I believe when he did. 9 Q She works for him now? 10 A I don't know. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm going to go into 12 the sealed record right now. This is a 13 separate. Why don't we set up a separate 14 tape. 15 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record 16 at 11:15 a.m. 17 (Recess) 18 MR. GILLIGAN: Note for the record 19 that there's five minutes remaining on the 20 hour of Mr. Klayman's questioning. You have 21 five minutes left on your hour. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes, I understand. * 387 1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On the record 2 at 11:47 a.m. 3 MS. SHAPIRO: We are going to begin 4 the Defendant's cross-examination and as a 5 matter of procedure, I'm going to begin the 6 cross-examination and will go for a couple of 7 hours in total, then Mr. Gilligan will follow 8 probably for a couple of hours and then 9 Mr. Gaffney will follow us. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me ask on the 11 record, are you representing different 12 clients in terms of dividing up the time? 13 How is that working? 14 MS. SHAPIRO: Well, we do have 15 different clients that we represent. 16 Mr. Zaccagnini has agreed he doesn't object 17 to us splitting up the cross-examination. 18 Do you have any objection to that, 19 Mr. Klayman. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: No, as a matter of 21 courtesy, I don't. We just expect similar 22 courtesy if we ever have to do that. 388 1 MS. SHAPIRO: We've provided that 2 to you. 3 MR. GILLIGAN: We have extended you 4 that courtesy before, so, let's go. 5 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR DEFENDANT 6 FBI AND EOP 7 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 8 Q Ms. Tripp, I represent the White 9 House and the FBI. 10 If I characterize any of your 11 testimony from your last deposition, please 12 correct me if it's not a correct 13 characterization. I don't mean to 14 mischaracterize anything. 15 A Okay. 16 Q Did you review the prior testimony 17 before today? 18 A No. 19 Q Have you reviewed the testimony of 20 other grand jury witnesses prior to this 21 deposition? 22 A I was given a -- 389 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, vague. 2 THE WITNESS: Are we talking about 3 this case? 4 MR. ZACCAGNINI: When you say Grand 5 Jury, Ms. Shapiro, do you mean in the 6 Lewinsky investigation? 7 MS. SHAPIRO: Yes. 8 THE WITNESS: No, actually the only 9 testimony I reviewed was Cliff Bernath's. It 10 made me nauseous and I stopped. 11 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 12 Q That was the deposition in this 13 case, the Cliff Bernath deposition? 14 A You were speaking of the Grand 15 Jury. 16 Q The Grand Jury, okay. 17 A This had to do with the Starr 18 report and that's as far as I got. 19 I have, however, reviewed, and by 20 reviewed, I mean skimmed Bill Kennedy's 21 deposition in this case. 22 Q Fine. Before you went to work for 390 1 the Bush White House, you worked at the 2 Pentagon, correct? 3 A For a brief period. 4 Q When was that? 5 A August of '90 until April of '91. 6 Q What was your position at the 7 Pentagon? 8 A I was the GS-3187 stenographer in 9 the Office of the Under Secretary of the Army 10 for Operations Research. 11 Q How did you come to interview at 12 the Bush White House? 13 A I was asked to interview. 14 Q By whom? 15 A I believe at the time it was 16 Maureen Hudson. 17 Q You interviewed for the job as 18 senior floater; is that correct? 19 A Yes. Actually I had been 20 approached years earlier for the same 21 position, but for Vice President Bush, when 22 he first became Vice President and so the 391 1 same people who had suggested I speak to them 2 at that point, also suggested I speak to them 3 when I came back to Washington and knew I 4 would be staying for an extended period. 5 Q When were you offered the job, was 6 it the job of senior floater that you were 7 offered ultimately? 8 A That was the job I took. 9 Q When were you offered that 10 position? 11 A I don't know. I started in April 12 of '91. 13 Q April of '91? 14 A Correct. 15 Q After the 1992 Presidential 16 elections, did you take any time off? 17 A Yeah, I think about two work weeks. 18 Q At what point were you contacted 19 about working in the new Administration? 20 A Well, I returned to work and either 21 the first day of my return or the second I 22 was asked to come work in the President's 392 1 Office. 2 Q So you were there from the very 3 first day of the Administration from January? 4 A Well, I don't know now how long the 5 two weeks -- where it fell. I know that in 6 the very beginning of the first term I was 7 there in the early days. 8 Q You spent about three months you 9 said in the immediate Office of the 10 President; is that correct? 11 A It was in sum total about three 12 months, so when I started was probably the 13 end of January, because it was very shortly 14 after my return to work after the 15 Inauguration. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Let the record 17 reflect and I'm going to not object to your 18 posing leading questions with regard to this 19 background information, but since you and the 20 Department of Justice have asserted 21 objections on behalf of Ms. Tripp and claimed 22 to represent her in her capacity as a 393 1 Government employee, that we will object if 2 you ask leading questions with regard to 3 substantive issues. 4 MS. SHAPIRO: Well, we will be 5 asking leading questions, but your objection 6 is noted. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, then I'll be 8 objecting. 9 MS. SHAPIRO: Well, why don't we 10 have a standing objection to leading 11 questions? 12 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll do it the way I 13 want to do it. 14 MS. SHAPIRO: Okay. 15 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 16 Q When did you make the transition 17 from the immediate Office of the President to 18 the Counsel's Office? 19 A To the best of my recollection, it 20 was three months following the beginning of 21 my work. 22 Q So sometime at the end of April? 394 1 A I believe so. 2 Q You would have moved to the 3 Counsel's Office; is that right? 4 A It -- I testified the way I want to 5 testify. That's what I recall. 6 MR. ZACCAGNINI: For the record, 7 Ms. Shapiro, what year are you referring to? 8 MS. SHAPIRO: 1993. 9 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 10 Q Why did you make that transition? 11 A I was asked to. 12 Q By whom? 13 A Vince Foster. 14 Q Vince Foster approached you and 15 asked you if you wanted to work in the 16 Counsel's Office? 17 A Yes. 18 Q He asked you specifically if you 19 wanted to work for Bernie Nussbaum? 20 A He presented me with a scenario in 21 which I would work directly for Bernie 22 Nussbaum and he summarized what he envisioned 395 1 the position to entail. 2 He then had me speak to Steve 3 Neuwirth to iron it out. There were various 4 issues that needed to be addressed having to 5 do with my apolitical status. We did that. 6 Q On your first day that you came in 7 to work in the Counsel's Office, Betsy Pond 8 sat in the desk that was closest to 9 Mr. Nussbaum's office; is that right? 10 A To the best of my recollection, she 11 did. 12 Q Directly across from her would have 13 been Deb Gorham? 14 A To the best of my recollection, 15 yes. 16 Q Who sat behind Deb Gorham? 17 A I believe the day that I started 18 there it was a vacant desk. 19 Q It was vacant? 20 A Uh-huh. 21 Q Was the desk behind Betsy Pond also 22 vacant before you came to work there? 396 1 A It had been filled by a woman by 2 the name of Cynthia McManus who as I 3 understood it was asked to leave the 4 Counsel's Office. She was there for a short 5 period. Vince Foster said there had been 6 some problems with her -- and there had been, 7 that I had witnessed and she went back to 8 Justice, as I understood it. 9 Q Was she a hold-over? 10 A She was from Justice. 11 Q Had she worked in the Bush 12 Administration? 13 A Not to my knowledge. Certainly not 14 in the White House. I'm told she had had 15 some White House experience at some point. 16 Q How was it that you witnessed 17 problems with her on the first day of your 18 working at Counsel's Office? 19 A The way that the Counsel's Office 20 came to know me was infrequently, and I would 21 say maybe twice they asked if I could be lent 22 from the President's Office to the Counsel's 397 1 Office. 2 So on those two occasions that I 3 can recall right now, I witnessed certain 4 things in the Counsel's Office, and I was 5 introduced on a more formal level to the 6 folks who worked in the West Wing Counsel's 7 Office. 8 Q Had you also through these 9 interactions come to know Betsy Pond and Deb 10 Gorham while you were still in the outer 11 Office of the President? 12 A Not well. 13 Q You knew them well enough to 14 identify who they were? 15 A Certainly. Let me take that back. 16 Betsy Pond I knew in terms of being able to 17 identify. 18 Q But not Deb Gorham? 19 A No, I don't think so. 20 Q Deb Gorham you would have met when 21 you came to work in the Counsel Office suite? 22 A I may have met her before. I don't 398 1 remember. This really -- it's a level of 2 detail that I haven't really thought about. 3 Q Between the time that you started 4 in Counsel's Office and Vince Foster's death, 5 just as a benchmark, did the composition of 6 the people who sat in those four desks 7 change? 8 A Yes. As I stated, Cynthia McManus 9 departed sometime in that time frame. 10 Q You occupied her desk? 11 A At one point. They hired a young 12 man by the name of Tom Castleton. Prior to 13 Tom Castleton coming on, Mr. Nussbaum had 14 hired a young girl from the DNC to handle 15 correspondence, opening of correspondence, 16 dating of correspondence and logging of 17 correspondence. She didn't work out and she 18 was removed from the Counsel's Office. 19 Q Do you know who that person is, her 20 name? 21 A I don't remember her name. I don't 22 recall anyone else. 399 1 Q I think you had testified earlier 2 that around Labor Day of '93, after Vince 3 Foster's death, Deb Gorham then left the 4 Counsel's Office suite in the West Wing and 5 moved over to the Old Executive Office 6 Building; is that right? 7 A I'm sorry, I'm not convinced that 8 it was Labor Day. I do know that it was 9 several weeks following Mr. Foster's death. 10 So, Labor Day may well be accurate. 11 Q Who took over Ms. Gorham's desk 12 when she left? 13 A No one that I recall. 14 Q That remained vacant; is that 15 right? 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading. 17 THE WITNESS: I believe so. I 18 don't remember anyone sitting there. There 19 came a time when I moved in to that desk, but 20 I don't remember when that was or for how 21 long. It was a very short period, because 22 then I moved in to Betsy's desk when she was 400 1 moved. 2 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 3 Q So you sat initially behind Betsy 4 Pond? 5 A Uh-huh. 6 Q Then you moved over to where Debra 7 Gorham sat and then moved over to where Betsy 8 Pond sat? 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading, 10 compound. 11 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I think I was 12 there until Lloyd Cutler came. 13 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 14 Q When do you remember that Joel 15 Klein took over as Deputy Counsel? 16 A I believe it was December of '93. 17 Q December of '93? 18 A Uh-huh. 19 Q His executive assistant was a woman 20 named Julie, you said? 21 A I believe so. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading. 401 1 Move to strike. 2 THE WITNESS: I don't know what her 3 title was. 4 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 5 Q What was your relationship with 6 Mr. Klein? Let me be more specific, what was 7 the level of your interaction with Mr. Klein? 8 A Almost none professionally. It was 9 more a, an observing. It wasn't an 10 interaction. Very little interaction with 11 Joel Klein. 12 Q He didn't supervise you in any way 13 while you were working there? 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading. 15 THE WITNESS: No. He complained on 16 various occasions about office matters and 17 having to do with the operational running of 18 the West Wing Office, and so, we had those 19 sorts of conversations, but nothing 20 substantive. 21 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 22 Q I think you said that you went over 402 1 to the Old EOB yourself in about May of 1994; 2 is that right? 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading. 4 THE WITNESS: May have even been a 5 little later. It was right around the time 6 that my FBI file was requested, interestingly 7 enough. 8 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 9 Q So you think it was either May or 10 June? 11 A It seems to be, May. I didn't 12 write down the dates. 13 Q When you went over to the Old EOB, 14 did you take any vacation time? 15 A I did, although I left the White 16 House with over 900 dollars -- 900 hours of 17 uncompensated vacation time. 18 Q Annual leave? 19 A No, actually the Clinton White 20 House never took annual leave, interestingly 21 enough. They cashed it in when they left, 22 but they weren't charged, at least for the 403 1 first two years, with annual leave, 2 surprisingly. 3 I did take annual leave, however, 4 the career staff did. 5 Q How much leave did you take when 6 you went over to the Old EOB, how long of a 7 time? 8 A I don't know. We'd have to check 9 the records. Mine was completely annotated 10 and submitted through the correspondence 11 office where all my leave was committed. 12 Q Do you think it was more than a 13 week? 14 A Don't know. Don't know. 15 Q More than a month? 16 MR. ZACCAGNINI: She's already 17 answered the question. 18 THE WITNESS: You'd have to check 19 the records. 20 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 21 Q Did you come back to the Old EOB 22 after you took leave and before you left for 404 1 the Pentagon? 2 A Yeah, because there was no Pentagon 3 job at that point. 4 Q When you went on leave, you had not 5 yet gotten another job? 6 A No. I was resume writing in the 7 Old EOB. 8 Q Do you remember when it was that 9 you came back to the Old EOB and started 10 writing resumes? 11 A It was in that time frame from 12 early -- late May, early June, and I started 13 at the Pentagon in August. That was my duty 14 station at that time, and the job I was given 15 was to find a job. 16 Q Did you get any letters of 17 recommendation from anybody in the Counsel's 18 Office for use in your job search? 19 A I didn't ask for one. Bernie had 20 been fired. It didn't seem appropriate at 21 that time. Joel Klein was someone who scared 22 me. Vince Foster was dead. I don't know, 405 1 Bernie. Bruce Lindsay had told me I would be 2 destroyed. I don't know who you thought I 3 would have gotten one from. 4 Q So you didn't ask anybody for a 5 letter of recommendation? 6 A No. 7 Q You didn't receive one, I take it? 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading. 9 THE WITNESS: I didn't ask for one. 10 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 11 Q But did you receive one 12 unsolicited? 13 A From? 14 Q From anybody? 15 A Actually Bernie had offered to give 16 me one when he left. 17 Q Who did? 18 A Bernie Nussbaum. 19 Q Bernie offered to give you one? 20 A Uh-huh. 21 Q Did he, in fact, give you one? 22 A I didn't ask for one, I just got 406 1 through telling you that. 2 Q I'm sorry, I didn't hear you. 3 A I declined. 4 Q He offered to give you a letter of 5 recommendation, you declined to accept it? 6 A That's right. 7 Q Did you ever see, did he actually 8 write out the letter and show it to you? 9 A I wrote most of his correspondence 10 and I didn't write one for myself. I found 11 that to be a little bit disingenuous. 12 Q So you never saw any letter of 13 recommendation that he wrote for you? 14 A I wrote several for Bernie for 15 others. 16 Q But you didn't see one that he 17 wrote for you? 18 THE WITNESS: How many times do I 19 have to answer this? 20 MR. ZACCAGNINI: One more time. 21 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 22 Q It's a different question than I 407 1 think you're answering. 2 A No. 3 Q Prior to this deposition, have you 4 ever had a conversation with Mr. Klayman or 5 any of his staff? 6 A I had one conversation with 7 Mr. Klayman. I'm sorry, I don't remember the 8 time frame. It was this year. 9 MR. GILLIGAN: This year? 10 THE WITNESS: Last 11 year, '97 -- '98, sorry. 12 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 13 Q Was it in person or by telephone? 14 A It was on telephone. 15 Q Who were the participants to the 16 conversation? 17 A I'm really not clear on why I even 18 had this conversation, but -- or what it was 19 about -- but it was with a lawyer and I think 20 it was Joe Murtha. I think it was my other 21 counsel. 22 Q On the other end of the phone was 408 1 Mr. Klayman? 2 A I don't know. 3 Q Did he identify himself as 4 Mr. Klayman? 5 A Yes. Yes. 6 Q Was there anybody else on the phone 7 with Mr. Klayman? 8 A I don't remember. I don't remember 9 speaking -- I don't remember speaking to 10 anyone else. There may well have been 11 someone in the background, but I don't know. 12 Q Who contacted whom? 13 A I don't remember. This was a -- I 14 can't, right now as we sit here, remember the 15 time frame. I think it was after my 16 testimony before the grand jury. I think it 17 was about files, but I'm not. 18 Q You don't remember whether he 19 called you or you called him? 20 A I don't think we called him, but I 21 don't know. I don't know. We'd have to see 22 if we could -- excuse me a minute. 409 1 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Excuse me. 2 THE WITNESS: I don't remember too 3 much about this. Yeah, I just don't 4 remember. This was a very intense time for 5 me and this was not my biggest concern, 6 frankly. 7 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 8 Q Were you speaking from your home or 9 from your attorney's office or from some 10 other place? 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading. 12 THE WITNESS: Home. 13 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 14 Q Have you ever given Mr. Klayman 15 your home telephone number? 16 A I don't know if we did that day or 17 not. 18 Q Did Mr. Klayman ask you if you were 19 willing to cooperate in providing testimony 20 in this case? 21 A I don't remember the substance of 22 the conversation. You're free to talk to my 410 1 attorney who I will allow to speak to you 2 about that conversation. I don't remember 3 it. 4 Q Do you remember the date of the 5 Travel Office firings? 6 A I don't. 7 Q Does May 19, 1993, sound about 8 right? 9 A I think it was May. I'm sorry, I 10 don't remember the date. 11 Q You testified a couple weeks ago 12 that shortly before the Travel Office firings 13 you remember Bill Kennedy coming in to the 14 Counsel's Office for a meeting that Deb 15 Gorham indicated to you was a Travel Office 16 meeting; is that right? 17 A I think I referenced many people 18 going in to that meeting if we are speaking 19 of the same meeting. 20 Q Do you remember Bill Kennedy coming 21 in to the Counsel Office suite for a meeting 22 which Deb Gorham indicated to you was a 411 1 Travel Office meeting? 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, compound, 3 leading. 4 THE WITNESS: I believe I testified 5 that Bill Kennedy was one of a group of 6 people who came to attend a meeting that Deb 7 Gorham described to me as a Travel Office 8 meeting. 9 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 10 Q You testified that when Bill 11 Kennedy came in to this meeting, that he was 12 carrying what you called a redwell under his 13 arm; is that right? 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading. 15 THE WITNESS: I believe I testified 16 that he was carrying a redwell and that he 17 was carrying other files. 18 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 19 Q So he had things in both of his 20 arms; is that your recollection? 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading. 22 THE WITNESS: That's my 412 1 recollection. 2 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 3 Q Did he have files inside the 4 redwell? 5 A I don't have a distinct 6 recollection of whether it was fastened or 7 not. It was wide. The files that I 8 referenced, I believe in my testimony, were 9 those that, I have stated, had a commonality 10 to them to the others that were in his 11 office, yes. 12 Q But at the time that you saw 13 Mr. Kennedy come in to your office with 14 files, you didn't know about any commonality 15 at that point, correct? 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading 17 and misstates prior testimony. 18 THE WITNESS: No, that's not true. 19 I had already seen those sorts of files in 20 the White House complex. 21 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 22 Q Are these the files that you said 413 1 you saw in Mr. Kennedy's office in the Old 2 Executive Office Building? 3 A Yeah. I don't know at that time 4 whether it was in Craig Livingstone's office 5 or in Bill Kennedy's office. I later saw, 6 for sure, stacks of those files in 7 Mr. Kennedy's office. 8 Q You say you don't remember if files 9 were in the redwell or not; is that correct? 10 A I don't know. 11 Q But you did see files in the other 12 arm; is that what you're saying? 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading. 14 THE WITNESS: I don't know if it 15 was in the other arm or if it was under one 16 arm with the redwell, I really don't know. 17 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 18 Q Do you remember where you were 19 sitting at the time that you noticed that he 20 was carrying this redwell? 21 A No, I could have been standing, for 22 all I know. 414 1 Q Is this, I'm showing you a sort of 2 typical government file, is this what you 3 mean when you talk about a redwell? 4 If you want, the video, you can 5 show what I'm holding up here. 6 Some people call it a redwell, an 7 accordion file. Is this what you're 8 referring to? 9 A I thought that the one that he had 10 was similar to that, but I thought that it 11 had a cover with a string. But I could be 12 wrong. 13 Q So it would have a flap over the 14 top? 15 A Yeah, and I can't tell you if it 16 was securely fastened or not, I just don't 17 know. I thought it had a cover. 18 Q The files that you observed that he 19 had with him, were they this sort of a 20 government issue type file? 21 A I already testified that I don't 22 remember. 415 1 MR. ZACCAGNINI: That's all right. 2 (Counsel conferred with witness) 3 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 4 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 5 Q Do you remember if they were manila 6 like this or if there was some color? 7 A I don't know. 8 Q Do you know if they were legal size 9 or letter size? 10 A I don't. 11 Q Do you remember if they were 12 flexible or stiff? 13 A I think I've testified that I don't 14 know a whole lot about what I remember about 15 the files, except that they looked the same 16 to me. They had similarities. 17 Q Well, I'll try to jog your memory, 18 but if you can't remember, you can't 19 remember. But I'm suggesting various 20 characteristics so that it might jog your 21 memory of what these looked like. 22 A Right, I don't know. 416 1 Q Did you see any labels on the 2 folders? 3 A Labels, meaning? 4 Q Any writing on the folders? 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, asked and 6 answered, and leading. 7 MR. ZACCAGNINI: You can answer it. 8 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 9 Q You can answer it. 10 A I don't remember if the ones that 11 Mr. Kennedy was carrying -- if, at that time, 12 I saw any name on the portion where there 13 would be a file folder name. I don't 14 remember. I later saw others that I could 15 see names on it which is how I saw names. 16 Q Were there any other markings, or 17 anything else of a descriptive nature about 18 the files, that you can recall? 19 A Not the ones that Bill Kennedy was 20 carrying, no. 21 Q Do you remember what time of day it 22 was when Mr. Kennedy came in to attend this 417 1 meeting? 2 A Day time. 3 Q Morning, afternoon? 4 A Couldn't tell you. 5 Q You don't remember where it was 6 that you were standing? 7 A I don't. 8 Q When someone comes in the front 9 door of the West Wing Counsel Office suite, 10 to get in to what was then Mr. Foster's 11 office, how would they walk? 12 A How would they walk. Well it would 13 depend if they were going directly in, if 14 they were stopping at one of the front desks. 15 Assuming -- 16 Q Did Mr. Kennedy stop at any of the 17 front desks? 18 A As I have testified, a group of 19 them came in together. They didn't single 20 file, immediately beeline it in to Vince's 21 office. They were mingling right there in 22 the front. 418 1 Q Was Mr. Kennedy in a group of 2 people such that there were people on either 3 side of him? 4 A I don't remember. You're asking me 5 a level of specificity that I just don't 6 remember. I didn't think of it at the time 7 as being as significant as it has turned out 8 to be. 9 Q But you are located in such a place 10 that you could see the files; is that your 11 testimony? 12 A I have said so, yes. 13 Q When Mr. Kennedy and the other 14 people that you had mentioned earlier went in 15 to this meeting, did they close the door? 16 A Don't know that they immediately 17 closed the door, but it was eventually 18 closed. 19 Q Do you know how long the meeting 20 lasted? 21 A I don't. 22 Q Were there other times before that 419 1 meeting that Mr. Kennedy would come in to 2 Counsel's Office, Counsel Office suite for 3 meetings? 4 A I'm sorry, I don't understand. 5 Q Had you ever observed Mr. Kennedy 6 attend meetings in the past in the Counsel 7 Office suite? 8 A Ever? 9 Q Prior to this particular day and 10 this particular meeting, had you ever 11 observed? 12 A He was a member of the Counsel's 13 Office staff and as such attended the 9:00 14 meeting, staff meeting, every day in Bernie's 15 office. 16 Q Did you ever observe him carrying 17 files or folders or materials of any kind in 18 to any of these meetings? 19 A I'm sure I did. I don't have a 20 specific recollection. I have a recollection 21 of this simply because of the other 22 information that I had become privy to about 420 1 the Travel Office and I was paying attention. 2 Q So there was nothing particularly 3 unusual about what Mr. Kennedy was carrying 4 or his appearance there? 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, compound, 6 vague and ambiguous and leading. 7 MS. SHAPIRO: You're free to 8 object, Mr. Klayman, but I'd like to finish 9 the question first, please. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Well it had so many 11 compound parts to it, I thought you were 12 finished. 13 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Could you repeat 14 the question, please? 15 MS. SHAPIRO: Yes, sure. 16 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 17 Q Is it your testimony that there's 18 nothing unusual about seeing Mr. Kennedy in 19 the Counsel Office suite, or carrying 20 materials, but it was simply because of the 21 Travel Office nature that you paid particular 22 attention; is that your testimony? 421 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading, 2 compound, vague and ambiguous. 3 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Do you understand 4 the question? 5 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 6 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Can you break it 7 down? 8 THE WITNESS: Was it unusual that 9 he was in the Counsel's Office, clearly not. 10 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 11 Q Was it unusual that he would be 12 carrying things? 13 A I don't recall whether he carried 14 things routinely or not. I recall him 15 carrying things that day. I was paying 16 strict attention to what Mr. Kennedy was 17 doing that day. 18 Q So you don't know if, on prior 19 occasions, he came in to the Counsel Office 20 suite carrying things? 21 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Asked and 22 answered. 422 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading. 2 MR. ZACCAGNINI: You can answer it 3 one more time. 4 THE WITNESS: I'm certain 5 Mr. Kennedy frequently carried materials. As 6 long as you don't ask me to specifically name 7 the days, I'm sure that we could be safe in 8 saying that. 9 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 10 Q Did you say approximately how much 11 time that meeting lasted? 12 A I didn't. 13 Q Do you know how much time it 14 lasted? 15 A I don't. 16 Q Did everybody leave the Counsel 17 Office suite after that meeting broke up? 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading. 19 THE WITNESS: I don't remember in 20 what order they left. I don't remember how 21 long it lasted. It was a relatively long 22 meeting, I would say. I don't remember who 423 1 left and who stayed, frankly. 2 Remember that I've testified that 3 there was more than one such meeting, so I 4 can't be clear on how long each one lasted or 5 who left in what order. 6 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 7 Q You had testified that, on the same 8 day of the meeting that we are discussing, 9 you went in to Vince Foster's office with Deb 10 Gorham to look at some photographs; is that 11 right? 12 A I don't know that we went in to 13 look at photographs. We went in for some 14 reason, and she showed me a photograph, or 15 two, actually, I believe. 16 Q This was the same day as was the 17 Travel Office meetings? 18 A Yes. 19 Q You don't remember the reason that 20 you went in to the office? 21 A I don't. 22 Q Mr. Foster, I take it, was not in 424 1 the office at that time? 2 A No, uh-uh. 3 Q Was Mr. Nussbaum in his office? 4 A I don't remember. 5 Q Was anybody else with you and 6 Ms. Gorham when you went in to Vince Foster's 7 office? 8 A No, I don't think so. 9 Q Where were the photographs located 10 in Vince Foster's office? 11 A I believe they were near, well his 12 office is very tiny. I don't know if you've 13 been in there. There was a small sofa and a 14 small coffee table and his desk all within a 15 very compressed area, and I believe they were 16 above the -- on the wall or on the bookshelf 17 in front of his desk, and in front of the 18 coffee table. 19 Q About how far from there, from 20 where you saw the photos was his actual desk? 21 A Right there. 22 Q Right next to each other? 425 1 A You would fall, you'd have to be 2 careful how you walked, it was that tight. I 3 wasn't wearing reading glasses then. I think 4 even today I would not have needed reading 5 glasses for the files on the desk. We were 6 that close. 7 Q Did you use reading glasses back 8 in 1993? 9 A No. I didn't get them until, I 10 think, I had been at the Pentagon a year and, 11 actually, I've never worn glasses in the 12 Pentagon until this prescription. 13 Q Are you near-sighted? 14 A I have an astigmatism in my right 15 eye, very minor and doesn't require a 16 prescription, according to the 17 ophthalmologist, and I have old age eyesight 18 for reading. You'll get it, too. 19 Q In 1993 you didn't use any 20 corrective lenses of any kind? 21 A No. 22 Q Had you ever seen the photos before 426 1 that were in Vince Foster's office? 2 A I don't remember seeing them 3 closely. This was one of several times that 4 Deb showed me photos. I don't know that that 5 was, as I've said, the reason we went in 6 there, and I don't recall why we did, except 7 that I would have probably taken up any offer 8 of going in because I was very suspicious 9 about what I was seeing. 10 At one point he had added a picture 11 of himself, with his wife, on a boat. We 12 went in to see that at one point. The Miss 13 Mary's, I think, was early on. I think that 14 was at that day, the May day. 15 Q You testified earlier that 16 Mr. Foster was very fastidiously neat; is 17 that right? 18 A Relatively speaking. Compared to 19 the way I am, certainly. 20 Q That his desk was relatively free 21 from clutter? 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading. 427 1 THE WITNESS: In terms of how his 2 office looked routinely, it wasn't piles and 3 piles and piles like Bill Kennedy's office. 4 It was a relatively orderly sense when you 5 walked in. Certainly, work present and 6 accounted for on his desk, but not the Bill 7 Kennedy method of operation. 8 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 9 Q Was there clutter on his desk the 10 day that you were looking at the photographs? 11 A There were files on the desk. 12 Q Was there anything else other than 13 files? 14 A I don't remember. I'm sure. 15 Q Did you go over to his desk so that 16 you could get a better look at the files? 17 A I was standing right in front of 18 his desk. 19 Q So you didn't need to go over and 20 get a better look, you could see them, is 21 that your -- 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading. 428 1 THE WITNESS: I testified I saw 2 them, yes. 3 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 4 Q Did the files that you saw in his 5 desk have labels on them, or was there 6 writing on them? 7 A I don't remember writing. 8 Q Do you remember a typed label, like 9 on a white adhesive sort of label? 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading. 11 THE WITNESS: I know I saw the name 12 Dale. 13 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 14 Q Do you have any recollection about 15 how the name Dale appeared on the file 16 folder? 17 A I don't. 18 Q Do you remember if it was in all 19 capitals or if it was lower case, upper case? 20 A You just asked me if I had any 21 recollection. I said I don't, so your asking 22 me further clarifying questions isn't going 429 1 to help me. 2 Q Sometimes your recollection can be 3 refreshed with some prompting. 4 A I know, I know. I wish. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: As long as the 6 prompting isn't leading. 7 THE WITNESS: Well, she's allowed 8 to lead, right? 9 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I don't have any 10 objection. 11 MR. GILLIGAN: Are you going to 12 night school? Do you think this is so much 13 fun you want to practice law? 14 MR. KLAYMAN: She's not allowed to 15 lead, in our opinion. 16 THE WITNESS: I'm not of the 17 caliber that could ever do what you people 18 do. 19 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Let me take a 20 break for a minute. 21 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record 22 at 12:21 p.m. 430 1 (Recess) 2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On the record at 3 12:23 p.m. 4 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 5 Q We were talking about the file that 6 you saw on Mr. Foster's desk. 7 A Files. 8 Q Files. How many of the actual 9 names on the files could you read? 10 A I only saw the name Dale. 11 Q I'm going to ask you again if 12 there's any description you can give to that 13 file that you saw, in terms of identifying 14 characteristics. 15 A No. 16 Q You can't remember anything at all 17 about what that file looks like? 18 A No. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading, 20 move to strike. 21 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 22 Q This file made an impression on 431 1 you; isn't that right? 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading. 3 THE WITNESS: The name made an 4 impression on me. 5 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 6 Q It made an impression on you 7 because shortly after you saw that file, 8 Mr. Dale was fired; is that right? 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading. 10 THE WITNESS: No, it was a little 11 more than that. 12 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 13 Q A little more than what, the 14 impression? 15 A No, the -- I had been aware, as I 16 testified previously, to a concerted effort 17 to remove the Travel Office employees. 18 I testified that I was familiar 19 with that because of conversations I had had 20 with Katherine Cornelius and Clarissa Cerda, 21 so I was sensitive to that -- and other 22 reasons. 432 1 Q But clearly it made an impression 2 on you, correct? 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading, 4 asked and answered. 5 THE WITNESS: That the Travel 6 Office was being set up? 7 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 8 Q That, when you saw this Dale file, 9 it meant something to you? 10 A Oh, clearly. I thought they were 11 in danger. I should have warned them. 12 Q You remembered the appearance of 13 this file at least for several months, 14 because you said several months later you saw 15 files of a similar commonality to them; is 16 that right? 17 A That's very true, many of them, and 18 I can't tell you -- 19 Q So you had in your mind at that 20 point what these files looked like; is that 21 right? 22 A In 1993? 433 1 Q Yes. 2 A Yes, I think so. I'm sorry, I just 3 don't remember the color or the size. 4 Q Or anything else about them; is 5 that right? 6 A Well that they looked like files. 7 They looked like files. I'm not going to be 8 more specific when I can't remember 9 specifically. 10 Q But these were burned into your 11 mind enough so that -- 12 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection of your 13 characterization "burned in," but go ahead. 14 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 15 Q You remembered these files well 16 enough so that you talked to Mr. Snow about 17 them; is that right? 18 A Yeah, but it wasn't strictly 19 because I remembered them by what they looked 20 like. I had other, other information that 21 made me question what they were back then, 22 even though I had never even heard of 434 1 Filegate, never suspected at that point that 2 they had been illegally obtained from the 3 FBI. 4 Q You don't remember what they looked 5 like. Let's talk about what they didn't look 6 like, because you testified that you could 7 say what they didn't like look; is that 8 right? 9 A I think I testified that they 10 didn't look like White House personnel 201 or 11 the equivalent file. 12 Q Lets start there, what does the 13 White House 201 file look like? 14 A The ones that I've seen -- and I 15 think I also testified that they didn't look 16 like the security files that Craig 17 Livingstone's office, and his predecessors, 18 had maintained, which, by the way, stayed the 19 same in appearance from the Bush White House 20 days to my time in the Clinton White House. 21 Q Let's start with the 22 personnel 201s, what did they look like? 435 1 A I don't remember what they looked 2 like now. I've had many other 201 files to 3 look at since then, or the equivalent, at 4 Defense, and I, right now, don't know if it's 5 Defense 201s, or, in fact, if they are even 6 called 201s. At the time they looked 7 different to me. 8 Q But you can't think now about what 9 they looked like, the personnel folders? 10 A No. I can tell you that the White 11 House personnel office folders had a side 12 that had a compilation of what appeared to be 13 SF 50s or 52s readily apparent. You could 14 see them sideways and you could see them if 15 it were opened. These didn't have that. 16 Q I'm not sure I understood. Could 17 you describe again what you mean? 18 A Again, these are only the files 19 that I've seen, and I've seen my own, as 20 well. I believe it was the left or the 21 right -- I really shouldn't say -- one side 22 had -- it appeared to be a historic overview 436 1 of each 50 or 52. 2 Q You're describing the inside of the 3 file? 4 A Right. Inside of the file. 5 Q The outside of the file, do you 6 remember? 7 A I don't remember. 8 Q Do you know or can you tell me what 9 a 201 personnel file is? 10 A I may be mischaracterizing the 11 name; a personnel file as opposed to a 12 political file. 13 By that I mean -- when I speak 14 specifically of the White House -- I mean the 15 Office of Administration White House 16 Personnel Office that oversees the life 17 insurance benefits, the leave situation, 18 should it be adhered to, the health insurance 19 pay, time in grade, personnel related issues. 20 Q What's the SF, what's the 52 that 21 you referred to? 22 A I'm not sure if it's a 50 or a 52, 437 1 and it's a form which generates those changes 2 or reflects those changes in personnel. 3 Q You also said that the Dale file, 4 and these others with the same commonality, 5 did not look like a personnel security file; 6 is that right? 7 A From my experience, yes. 8 Q Do you remember what a personnel 9 security file looks like? 10 A We are now in 1999. I can tell you 11 that in 1993, the White House personnel files 12 of which I had seen, the files which Bill 13 Kennedy, Craig Livingstone and Vince Foster 14 had, were different. That's what I can tell 15 you. 16 Q But you can't tell us in what way 17 they are different? 18 A Well the stacks and stacks of them 19 in Bill Kennedy's office looked like the ones 20 that were in the back by the little anteroom 21 in Craig Livingstone's office, looked like 22 the ones Bill Kennedy carried, and looked 438 1 like the ones in Bernie's safe used by Vince 2 Foster, looked like the one that said Dale, 3 and, later, the Chris Emory one, as well. 4 Q Do you have memory of the security 5 folders being color-coded? 6 A I don't remember. I really didn't 7 pay a lot of attention to Craig Livingstone 8 or his predecessor's work, only when it 9 pertained to something specific, for 10 instance, my own submitting forms. There was 11 a routine that the young lady who lived in 12 there -- where these forms were placed. I 13 don't remember what the files looked like. 14 Q Had you been back in to the 15 anteroom, as you called it, in Craig 16 Livingstone's office? 17 A I don't know that I was in it. The 18 door was open and I was in that doorway, 19 yeah. 20 Q Are you referring to the safe? 21 What do you mean when you say anteroom? 22 A It seemed like a walk-in -- like a 439 1 walk-in pantry of some sort. 2 Q I think you also said that these 3 files, that all had the same commonality, did 4 not look like vetting files; is that correct? 5 A They did not look like the vetting 6 files that I had seen. 7 Q What did the vetting files that you 8 had seen look like? 9 A They looked different, and they 10 didn't all look alike, they all had -- 11 Q So there were many different types 12 of vetting files? 13 A None of the vetting files that I 14 saw looked like the files that were in Bill 15 Kennedy's office at all. 16 Q Do you remember anything about what 17 any of the vetting files that you are 18 familiar with looked like? 19 A There were several vetting files 20 that I saw at rather close hand, and I don't 21 remember what they look like. Bobby Inman's 22 was one, I think judge -- what's his name. 440 1 Q You don't need to tell us who the 2 vetting files were, I'm interested in the 3 appearance of what the files looked like. 4 A They didn't look like these. 5 Q Other than not looking like those, 6 there's nothing else you can tell us? 7 A No, I didn't pay a lot of attention 8 to the vetting files. I paid more attention 9 to these because of my fears. 10 Q You looked at the vetting files 11 close enough to know, at least, that one of 12 them was Inman's file, correct? 13 A I saw that, I saw Bobby Inman's 14 file. 15 Q Do you remember anything about what 16 that file looked like? 17 A It was open at the time I saw it, I 18 believe, so I really don't remember. 19 Q I think you said that you concluded 20 that the Dale file that you saw in Vince 21 Foster's desk was an FBI file; is that right? 22 A I concluded that later. 441 1 Q What do you mean when you say FBI 2 file? 3 A Well, I don't know what I mean. I 4 know that I didn't think that at the time, 5 and when I was at the Pentagon and the 6 so-called Filegate story broke, I remember 7 thinking, oh, that must have been what I saw. 8 I had other reasons to make that leap. 9 Q Do you have in your mind a picture 10 of an FBI file? Is it something that you 11 envision coming from the shelves of the FBI 12 and landing in the White House? 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, 14 multi-compounded question, leading, as well 15 as incomprehensible. 16 THE WITNESS: I don't know that I 17 have a vision of what an FBI file would look 18 like. I've made no effort to try to 19 determine to this date what FBI files look 20 like, if there is any commonality to them at 21 all. I can only tell you what I saw. 22 In the safe in Bernie's office, the 442 1 safe that was used by Vince Foster, I came 2 across several of these, like, what I refer 3 to as FBI files. 4 In looking for a place for the, I 5 believe it was the National Security binder 6 that I was looking for a place to store, I 7 came across these files again, and, in 8 fingering through them, saw information that, 9 later, when I read about Filegate, made me 10 think that is what I saw. 11 At the time, seeing the words 12 Department of Justice or Justice Department 13 and the seal really didn't mean anything to 14 me because the White House had -- our office, 15 Counsel's Office, in particular, had daily 16 contact with the Justice Department. 17 Janet Reno and Webb Hubble were in 18 our office routinely, and I, frankly, 19 embarrassingly, hadn't made the connection 20 FBI and the Justice Department. 21 Q You said earlier that you don't 22 remember seeing FBI or Department of Justice 443 1 blazing on the front of the files; is that 2 right? 3 A I think what I testified to is that 4 I didn't see the words FBI on the front of 5 the cover. 6 Q Do you know if FBI files -- 7 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Excuse me, just 8 one second. 9 MS. SHAPIRO: Sorry. 10 (Counsel conferred with witness) 11 THE WITNESS: My counsel advises me 12 that I need to clarify where I saw the words 13 Justice Department or Department of Justice 14 and the seal, and that was inside several of 15 these files that were in the safe. I'm sure 16 you have the list in front of you, as well. 17 I can't tell you which one today, but there 18 were several and they were -- it was whatever 19 part of what was in the file. I mean it 20 wasn't on the outside. 21 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 22 Q So you're saying that you went 444 1 through the files that were in the safe? 2 A No. What I'm telling you is I went 3 through -- have you ever gone through a file 4 folder, a drawer, to find space -- and what I 5 saw was Department of Justice and the seal on 6 more than one piece of paper in these files. 7 Q So you're saying that you were 8 leafing through the insides of files? 9 A No, I wouldn't characterize it that 10 way. 11 Q So you're only leafing through 12 closed files; is that your testimony? 13 A Well, they weren't closed at the 14 top, they were open. 15 Q So, for example, if you had 16 something like this that had multiple 17 folders, you might have been looking. 18 A No, I don't recall it being that 19 way. If we have just a pile of files. 20 MR. ZACCAGNINI: A manila folder? 21 THE WITNESS: It doesn't matter 22 since I can't tell you what they looked like. 445 1 MS. SHAPIRO: A manila folder like 2 this? 3 THE WITNESS: I mean a stack of 4 them would do, and I'll show you what I did. 5 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 6 Q Here's a few folders. 7 A Empty ones are going to be a little 8 difficult. 9 All right, assume this is the 10 drawer and the drawer is -- 11 Q We are talking about a safe now, 12 aren't we? You're in the safe? 13 A Yes, but it's a file drawer. 14 Q It's a file drawer, okay. 15 A It's a file drawer. They are 16 standing up, and they are this way, so you're 17 going through seeing where one ended, where 18 the other one began. 19 (Indicating) 20 That way. I know what I saw. 21 Q The file is that accordion folder, 22 for example? 446 1 A No, I'm not testifying to that, at 2 all. I used that as an example. You asked 3 how I, whether I was going through them. 4 Q So the files were open at the top; 5 is that correct? 6 A That's correct. Well, the ones I 7 saw were open at the top. 8 Q Your testimony, then, is that as 9 you're flipping through, looking for space, 10 you're trying to secure some National 11 Security information, correct? 12 A That was why we were at the safe on 13 that particular day. 14 Q You saw what you thought were the 15 members of the Travel Office? 16 A No, I saw the Dale file, again, and 17 I saw Chris Emory's file, or at least a 18 folder which had the same characteristics as 19 the Dale folder. 20 Q You saw these at the same time, the 21 same day? 22 A Yes, this was the same -- I don't 447 1 recall seeing the Emory file on Vince 2 Foster's desk, but this is now in the safe 3 drawer, along with several others, names I 4 don't have and didn't see. In flipping 5 through them, several of them had pieces of 6 paper with the Department of Justice seal and 7 words. 8 Q The only two names of these similar 9 looking files that you remember, Dale and 10 Emory, on that particular day? 11 A That's correct. 12 Q Let me take you back for a moment 13 to the day that we are talking about the Dale 14 file, now on Vince Foster's desk. 15 This is a different day than the 16 safe day, correct? 17 A Yes, to the best of my 18 recollection, it was before. 19 Q It was before. Was it also before 20 Mr. Dale was fired? 21 A It would have had to have been, 22 because the meeting took place before he was 448 1 fired. 2 Q This was the same day as the 3 meeting, correct? 4 A The file day on Vince Foster's 5 desk? 6 Q Yes. 7 A That's correct. 8 Q Let me find for a moment, let me 9 first ask you this question. If you knew for 10 a fact that what you saw on Vince Foster's 11 desk was not an FBI file, would that change 12 your opinion about other files that had the 13 same commonality with that file? 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, 15 hypothetical, compound, leading. 16 THE WITNESS: I don't understand 17 the question. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Incomprehensible. 19 MS. SHAPIRO: Let me ask it again. 20 THE WITNESS: Okay. 21 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 22 Q If you knew for a fact that what 449 1 you saw on Vince Foster's desk was not an FBI 2 file, do you understand that much? 3 MR. ZACCAGNINI: It's a 4 hypothetical question. Accept the 5 proposition that, for purposes of this 6 question, that what you saw with Mr. Dale's 7 file. 8 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 9 Q Was not an FBI file, even though I 10 understand that you believe that that's not 11 the case. 12 If you knew for a fact that it was 13 not an FBI file -- 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me through in 15 relevancy here as an objection. 16 THE WITNESS: No, all right. 17 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 18 Q If you knew for a fact that it was 19 not an FBI file, would that change your 20 opinion about other files that had the same 21 appearance as the Dale file, as to whether 22 those were FBI files or not? 450 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Same objection. 2 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 3 Q You can answer. 4 A In the absence of other information 5 that I had in my possession, yes, with that 6 hypothetical, yes, I would be able to agree 7 with that. 8 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Just answer the 9 question. 10 MS. SHAPIRO: That's fine. 11 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 12 Q Let me direct your attention. Do 13 you have a copy of Exhibit 7, which was the 14 list that you needed your reading glasses to 15 look at last time? 16 A Uh-huh. So, what's your question? 17 Q Do you have that list? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Do you know what this list is, 20 other than what plaintiff's counsel has 21 represented it to be? 22 A No. 451 1 Q Can you turn to the entry for Billy 2 Ray Dale? 3 A Could you tell me what page that 4 is? 5 Q It's on page 9. 6 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Middle of the 7 page. 8 THE WITNESS: Oh, it's highlighted, 9 uh-huh. 10 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 11 Q If you can look to the furthest 12 column on the left. 13 A Yeah, I see that. 14 Q Under the heading "date received." 15 A Uh-huh. 16 Q I'm going to represent to you that 17 "date received" means that, it means the date 18 that the FBI received a request from the 19 White House for FBI information. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. 21 THE WITNESS: It says date 22 returned, doesn't it? 452 1 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 2 Q No. Date returned is on the far 3 right, you're not looking at the date 4 received on the far left. 5 A Okay, I see that. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, lacks 7 facts in evidence. 8 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 9 Q You see that, correct? 10 A Yes, I do. 11 Q Could you read that date, please? 12 A 12/28/93. 13 Q Could you then move to the far 14 right-hand column? 15 A Uh-huh. 16 Q Under date returned. 17 A Uh-huh. 18 Q I'll represent to you for purposes 19 now that "date returned" means the date on 20 which the FBI sent background information to 21 the White House. 22 Could you read that date? 453 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, assumes 2 facts not testified to in this case. 3 THE WITNESS: I can read the date. 4 It's 1/6/94. 5 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Just one second, 6 Ms. Shapiro, so I understand, the 7 representation with respect to that date is 8 what? 9 MS. SHAPIRO: The date returned? 10 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Yes. 11 MS. SHAPIRO: "Date returned" would 12 be the date that the FBI sent the information 13 requested back to the White House. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, assumes 15 facts not testified to. 16 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Right. 17 MS. SHAPIRO: I'm answering a 18 question of Counsel. 19 MR. ZACCAGNINI: So I'm clear, 20 "date received" is the date that the FBI, 21 based upon your representation, received a 22 request for the information? 454 1 MS. SHAPIRO: A request from the 2 White House. 3 MR. ZACCAGNINI: "Date returned" is 4 the date that the FBI returned the 5 information requested? 6 MS. SHAPIRO: Exactly. 7 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Perfect, thank 8 you. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Same objection. 10 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 11 Q It's fair to say that 12 January 6, '94, the date this information is 13 returned, is long after Mr. Dale was fired; 14 isn't that right? 15 A That's correct. 16 Q Does that change your opinion as to 17 what you saw on Mr. Foster's desk? 18 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Excuse me before 19 she answers that question. 20 (Counsel conferred with witness) 21 MS. SHAPIRO: I trust, 22 Mr. Zaccagnini -- 455 1 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'm not suggesting 2 an answer. We are going over what I 3 anticipated her answer was going to be, which 4 is based upon information she had already 5 related to me. 6 THE WITNESS: I understand that 7 you're representing what you believe to be 8 true. I can't accept the premise that you 9 have put forward based on what I saw and 10 other information that I had in my 11 possession. 12 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 13 Q So you're questioning my 14 representations as to what these dates mean? 15 A Not what they mean so much as their 16 accuracy. I would not believe they complete, 17 in totality, accuracy of this list. I saw 18 files which are not on this list I believe I 19 testified to. 20 Q Uh-huh. So you have a problem with 21 the accuracy of this list, correct? 22 A I think that it may be incomplete. 456 1 Q Hypothetically, if this list were 2 correct, and the dates were as they are 3 represented here, would that change your 4 opinion as to what you saw in Mr. Foster's 5 desk with respect to the Dale file? 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, compound, 7 leading, assumes facts not in evidence. 8 MR. ZACCAGNINI: You might want to 9 tell her why. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: It's vague and 11 ambiguous. 12 THE WITNESS: No, I'm sorry, it 13 wouldn't. There were other things that were 14 occurring during that same time frame with 15 Billy Dale, one of which involved 16 Mrs. Clinton. So no, I would not find that 17 palatable at all to accept. 18 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Let me just take a 19 second, if I may, I want to step outside and 20 take a short break. 21 MS. SHAPIRO: Off the record, 22 please. 457 1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record 2 at 12:47 p.m. 3 (Recess) 4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On the record at 5 12:51 p.m. 6 MS. SHAPIRO: Was there a question 7 pending? 8 MR. ZACCAGNINI: If I, I just want 9 to make sure we're clear, because I 10 understand we have a rather complicated 11 hypothetical and I appreciate what you're 12 trying to accomplish. I'm not sure if 13 Ms. Tripp completely understands it. 14 But are you satisfied with the 15 response? If you want to restate the 16 question, that's fine. I'm not sure 17 Ms. Tripp completely understood the question 18 because it was kind of a compound 19 hypothetical. I just want to put that on the 20 record. I'm not going to ask you to restate 21 the question, but if you want to, that's 22 fine. 458 1 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 2 Q I'll restate the question. See if 3 you understand what it is that I was asking 4 you, Ms. Tripp, if I remember the question. 5 I think the question was that, if 6 the dates that I showed you on that list are 7 what I've represented them to be, and they 8 are accurate, would that change your opinion 9 about what you saw on Vince Foster's desk and 10 whether that file was an FBI file or not? 11 MR. KLAYMAN: That's been asked and 12 answered, and the same objection, compound, 13 leading, ambiguous and vague. 14 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 15 Q You can answer it. 16 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Did you understand 17 the question? I think it's important that we 18 are clear on that issue. 19 THE WITNESS: Yes. If I -- the 20 question is, if I accept these dates as being 21 accurate, if I accept that this list is 22 accurate information, would that change my 459 1 feeling about my belief? 2 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 3 Q Right, that's the question. 4 A I suppose yes, that would. 5 Q I'm going to move on now to the 6 safe. About how long after this day, that 7 you were in Vince Foster's office and saw the 8 Dale file, did you go in to the safe to 9 secure the National Security information for 10 Bernie Nussbaum? 11 A I don't know, except that I did 12 that relatively frequently, and so I don't 13 know on which occasion it happened to be that 14 I came across the files. It was after the 15 Vince Foster desk day. 16 Q Do you think it was a long time 17 after, a matter of days? 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading, 19 compound. 20 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 21 Q Well I think you testified that it 22 was a matter of days. 460 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. 2 THE WITNESS: Exactly. I don't 3 think it could have been very long after it, 4 because I'm just trying to think -- excuse 5 me? 6 MR. KLAYMAN: No, I was just 7 clearing my throat. 8 THE WITNESS: I went on vacation, I 9 believe, the first or second week of July, 10 and it was prior to that. 11 So I think it was, if that was 12 sometime in the mid-May time frame, it would 13 have had to have been within the week or two, 14 or three, after that. 15 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 16 Q Do you remember if it was before or 17 after the time that the Travel Office 18 employees were fired? 19 A I don't know. You say that they 20 were fired or represented to me that 21 perhaps -- 22 Q May 19th, I believe, 1993. 461 1 A May 19th. I don't remember the 2 date of the Vince Foster meeting, so I don't 3 have the date of -- I can't be that specific. 4 Q I'm going to refer you to your 5 testimony and I'll give you this copy. This 6 is referring you to your earlier testimony a 7 couple of weeks ago, on page 64. 8 A 64? 9 Q Right. You described that you 10 needed to go -- 11 A Can you let me just read this? 12 Q Yes, I'm sorry, please review it. 13 A Okay. 14 Q It was your testimony that you 15 needed to secure some National Security 16 information for Mr. Nussbaum, correct, and 17 that you looked for Deb Gorham to open the 18 safe. She hadn't come back, and referring to 19 page 64, so you called Tony Marceca, he 20 wasn't able to come, then Debra Gorham comes 21 back, you go in together and you open the 22 safe, correct? 462 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Wait, asked and 2 answered. She's already testified to that 3 under oath. What's the point? 4 MS. SHAPIRO: I'm referring her to 5 her prior testimony. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, refer her, but 7 don't put words in her mouth. 8 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 9 Q Is that correct or not correct? 10 A I believe that's how I testified. 11 I'm reading it and it sounds remarkably the 12 same, so. 13 Q You agree with it today? 14 A I do. 15 Q Do you remember having -- 16 A May I finish? This is my 17 recollection of what happened that day. 18 Q That's fine. Do you remember 19 having a conversation with Tony Marceca that 20 day? 21 A No, actually what I remember is 22 calling Tony Marceca routinely to open the 463 1 safe. 2 Q So you don't know whether you 3 called him that day or not? 4 A No. 5 Q So this isn't necessarily accurate 6 what's written here? 7 A Oh, no, no, no, no, no, I 8 thought -- let me restate. I do remember 9 calling over for Tony Marceca. Whether I 10 spoke to him or not I don't know. He was 11 unavailable is my recollection. 12 Q Do you remember who you did speak 13 to? 14 A No, we called all the time. We 15 could never open the safe unless Debra was 16 there. 17 Q You have a specific recollection of 18 trying to reach Tony Marceca on this 19 particular day? 20 A You know, I don't know if it was -- 21 we called Tony Marceca all the time. Tony 22 Marceca didn't even come in to the picture 464 1 until well after us trying to get a hold of 2 someone in that office to come. 3 We were never able to get anyone 4 else in Craig Livingstone's office to open up 5 that safe until Tony arrived. When I think 6 of safe, I now think of Tony Marceca. He had 7 come over from the Army. I don't recall when 8 he arrived. I don't recall when he left. 9 Q Did you know him when he was at the 10 Army and you were at the Pentagon? 11 A No, uh-uh. Uh-uh. In fact, the 12 only dealings I had with him that I can 13 recall are safe-related. 14 Q You don't remember when Tony 15 Marceca started at the White House, do you? 16 A I don't, I don't. I just know that 17 there came a time when he arrived and he 18 became our safe man and that's how I think of 19 him. I think of him as the safe man. If 20 what you're telling me now is that -- 21 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Excuse me, Linda, 22 don't surmise into her question, just answer 465 1 the question. You've answered it. 2 THE WITNESS: Okay, I don't know 3 what else to tell you. 4 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 5 Q I can represent to you that Tony 6 Marceca began his work in the White House in 7 August of 1993. 8 A I agree with you, that's probably 9 true. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, facts not 11 testified to, not in evidence. 12 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 13 Q Does that change your recollection? 14 A Only where it says I called Tony 15 Marceca. I want to be clear on one thing, 16 the day that I saw the files in the safe, I 17 called for help, whether I called for Tony or 18 someone else, it was a short time after I saw 19 them on the desk. It was clearly not August 20 of '94, because by then I had already left. 21 I have a few questions for you just to 22 clarify in my mind because now you're -- 466 1 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Hold on a second. 2 THE WITNESS: No, I really have to 3 ask these questions. She said he came in 4 August of '94? 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me object. 6 MS. SHAPIRO: August '93. 7 THE WITNESS: Oh, okay. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Perhaps 9 Mr. Zaccagnini will deal with that. 10 Let me just represent that you 11 should not take what Ms. Shapiro says as 12 being true. 13 THE WITNESS: Oh, great. 14 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'll instruct my 15 client accordingly, but go ahead, 16 Ms. Shapiro, ask the next question. 17 THE WITNESS: Are we clear, though, 18 you said August of '93? 19 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 20 Q So your testimony is you're 21 probably mistaken when you mention Tony 22 Marceca here; it's not that this happened in 467 1 August or sometime after that? 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading, 3 compound, incomprehensible. This is turning 4 into a real circus, Ms. Shapiro. Do you make 5 up facts whenever you feel like it? 6 MS. SHAPIRO: It's almost lunch 7 time, do you want to break for lunch or 8 finish this? 9 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Let's break for 10 lunch and we'll come back and revisit this. 11 (Whereupon, at 1:00 p.m., a 12 luncheon recess was taken.) 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 468 1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N 2 (2:15 p.m.) 3 Whereupon, 4 LINDA R. TRIPP 5 was recalled as a witness and, having been 6 previously duly sworn, was examined and 7 testified further as follows: 8 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR DEFENDANT 9 FBI AND EOP CONTINUED 10 MS. SHAPIRO: We had a question 11 pending. If the court reporter can read the 12 question, please. 13 (The reporter read the record as 14 requested.) 15 THE WITNESS: I think I want to 16 clarify. I routinely called; there came a 17 point in time where I or Betsy Pond routinely 18 called Tony Marceca, because it was that 19 office's decision to have Tony Marceca be the 20 point of contact for the state. 21 Prior to that, when I or Betsy Pond 22 called over, someone else came to, and what I 469 1 believe I testified to in reviewing my 2 testimony is that I called, and he was not 3 available. Well, clearly on this day I 4 called, and whomever I was calling was not 5 available to come. 6 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 7 Q It's not correct that you asked for 8 Tony Marceca? You probably asked for 9 whomever was there; is that right? 10 A Yeah, I think my recollection is 11 that since I saw Associate Tony Marceca 12 repetitively with opening the safe, that in 13 my recollection for this particular meeting, 14 I misspoke when I named Tony Marceca. 15 Q Going back to the safe, you 16 testified that you saw a file marked Dale and 17 that you also saw a file with the name Emory; 18 is that correct? 19 A I saw a file with -- and I don't 20 recall seeing just Emory. I think I saw more 21 on his. 22 Q You did see a file with the name 470 1 Emory? 2 A I saw more than that on his. 3 Q More? 4 A In other words, it wasn't just the 5 name Emory. It was enough to make me 6 immediately recognize it as the usher. 7 Q Tell me everything you saw with 8 respect to Emory. 9 A I don't remember. I just remember, 10 knowing in my mind, and you can dispute that, 11 that this was the usher, and I don't know, 12 and I have no recollection of when he was let 13 go, so I don't know the timing of that. 14 Q The day that you saw the file was 15 the same day that you saw the Dale file, 16 correct, in the safe? 17 A Yes. 18 Q We placed in time that the day that 19 you're in the safe is some days after you 20 were in Vince Foster's office and saw the 21 Dale file on Vince Foster's desk; is that 22 right? 471 1 A Yeah, I would say within a period 2 of a few weeks. 3 Q We are talking sometime perhaps at 4 the end of May of 1993? 5 A I don't know, because I don't know 6 the date that the meeting took place that I 7 was referencing earlier. 8 Q Was it a compilation of files that 9 you saw with the name Emory or a single file? 10 A I don't know that I spent a lot of 11 time looking at what it was so much as it was 12 one that I was leafing through and, in my 13 mind, at least to my satisfaction, registered 14 the usher, and that was one of the ones that 15 had the Justice seal. 16 Q Do you remember it being thick or 17 thin? 18 A I don't have a memory of it. 19 Q Do you remember that there was a 20 file called Bill Kennedy in there? Correct? 21 A No, I don't -- yes, there was a 22 Kennedy file, and no, I don't remember seeing 472 1 the name. I was told that was the Kennedy 2 file. 3 Q We'll get back to that in a moment. 4 It struck you when you saw the name Emory 5 that it was Emory the White House usher; is 6 that right? 7 A Whatever I saw led me to believe 8 that, yes. 9 Q Was it what you saw? Was it 10 something other than the outside of the file, 11 or was it something that you saw on the 12 inside of the file? 13 A As I sit here, I believe it was 14 something I saw inside. 15 Q Inside the file. Do you remember 16 anything about what you saw inside the file? 17 A No, I just don't have -- I can tell 18 you that was my impression at the time. 19 Q Did this file look like the Dale 20 file? 21 A To the best of my recollection, it 22 was one of several that all looked alike. 473 1 Q All looked alike? 2 A Like the Dale file, yes. 3 Q You testified a couple weeks ago 4 that the Emory file made an impression on 5 you, because shortly after you saw it, 6 Mr. Emory was dismissed; is that right? 7 A I'm not sure if it was shortly 8 after or shortly before. I just know that it 9 made an impression on me in terms of it being 10 the usher. 11 Q Did you know Mr. Emory personally? 12 A Did I know him? I'm sorry. 13 Q Did you know him personally? 14 A I knew him professionally in a very 15 peripheral way. He was in the residence, and 16 on occasion, if there was a need to hand 17 carry something over to the President, often 18 it was Mr. Emory that we handed it to. 19 Q Let me just refer you one more time 20 to Exhibit 7 to your deposition, which is the 21 FBI list. This list is alphabetical. Can 22 you find Chris Emory's name on this list? 474 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, the list 2 speaks for itself. 3 THE WITNESS: No. There is -- no, 4 uh-uh. 5 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 6 Q Do you know when Chris Emory was 7 fired? 8 A I don't. 9 Q If I told you that it was in March 10 of 1994, does that sound correct? 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. 12 THE WITNESS: I have no idea. The 13 only thing I'd like to add to this, maybe to 14 make you understand or at least make my 15 position a little more understandable is that 16 in the beginning of the Clinton 17 Administration, when the Correspondence 18 Office was summarily dismissed, that 19 immediately, because of the way it was done, 20 more than anything, set up flags to those of 21 us who were considered apolitical, but who 22 still served at the pleasure of the 475 1 President. 2 So anytime we saw anything having 3 to do with those of us who were considered or 4 had been considered in the past permanent 5 staff made an impression. 6 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 7 Q It made an impression, but not 8 enough of an impression so that you remember 9 anything about what the file looks like? 10 A I don't know that I at the time 11 thought of any ominous significance in terms 12 of the file, because I don't think I thought 13 that even this Administration could do 14 anything so completely unethical. I've since 15 revised my thinking. 16 Q You testified that you also saw a 17 file that you subsequently learned was a file 18 about Bill Kennedy, correct? 19 A There was a thick file which I was 20 told by several people was Bill Kennedy's 21 file. 22 Q Did you see that file on the same 476 1 day that you saw the Emory file and the Dale 2 file? 3 A I saw Bill Kennedy's file on more 4 than one occasion. I can't be specific as to 5 whether it was in there that day. I tend to 6 think so, but I'm not positive. 7 Q Did that file look like the Dale 8 file and the Emory file? 9 A No. 10 Q It looked completely different? 11 A It didn't look like the stacks and 12 stacks. 13 Q Do you remember anything at all 14 about what -- 15 A It was very fat, very thick. 16 Q Other than being fat, can you 17 remember anything about what it looked like? 18 A I don't remember seeing his name. 19 I remember being told that that's what it 20 was, and it was taking up space. 21 Q You don't remember a color, for 22 example? 477 1 A I don't. I also know that I asked, 2 but was never told why we had it. I believe 3 at one point an explanation was given about 4 nanny taxes or something. 5 Q If you were to learn that that file 6 was an FBI file, would that change your 7 opinion as to files that looked different 8 from that file, as to whether those are FBI 9 files? 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Compound, 11 at least five different parts. It's leading, 12 and it's a hypothetical. Assumes facts not 13 in evidence. 14 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Do you understand 15 the question? 16 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Vague. 18 THE WITNESS: I don't have a 19 problem answering that. 20 Yeah, I mean, look, I have no idea 21 if the stacks and stacks of files that I 22 presumed to be FBI files were, in fact, FBI 478 1 files. They could very well have been hit 2 files put together. 3 Since I saw Justice letterhead and 4 pieces of paper in some of them, I have made 5 my own assumptions. Could very well have 6 been the White House's compilation of raw 7 data or any other form of information they 8 chose to get on people for whom they should 9 not have had files. I don't know that these 10 were raw data FBI files, nor did I know that 11 about Bill Kennedy's. 12 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 13 Q Nor do you know that it wasn't 14 something that you simply don't have 15 knowledge about, correct? 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, assumes 17 facts not in evidence, compound, leading. 18 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 19 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 20 Q Let me turn for a moment to your 21 testimony about the Privacy Act. 22 You testified that when you were in 479 1 the Bush White House, it was commonly 2 understood that the Privacy Act applied; is 3 that correct? 4 A I think my testimony was that as a 5 federal civil servant, since the inception of 6 the Privacy Act or the enactment of the 7 Privacy Act, it has always been something to 8 which we've all been made painfully aware. 9 I don't know that people understand 10 necessarily the intricacies. I know I don't, 11 but I believe that we are all familiar with 12 the fact that constraints exist. 13 Q Was that your experience in the 14 Bush White House? 15 A I'm trying to think whether I had 16 any access to information that would have 17 been considered covered by the Privacy Act. 18 I'm not sure I did. 19 Q Did anyone ever tell you in the 20 Bush White House that the Privacy Act 21 applied, and you should do this, that or the 22 other in order to meet its requirements? 480 1 A I'm trying to think whether, as I 2 said, I had any reason to have access to 3 information that would have been covered by 4 the Privacy Act. 5 Q You don't remember anybody 6 addressing it with you? 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, let her answer 8 the question. 9 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 10 Q I'm sorry; you can answer the 11 question. 12 A I believe, if I'm not mistaken, 13 that it was covered in a course some of us 14 took, having to do with the Detroit-based 15 payroll database system. 16 Q What part of the Bush White House 17 were you in specifically? 18 A Different times I was in different 19 offices. 20 Q Tell me each of the offices that 21 you were in while you worked in the Bush 22 White House. 481 1 A Several. Office of media affairs, 2 media relations, several days in Mrs. Bush's 3 office. The greatest period of time was 4 media affairs and the Office of the Chief of 5 Staff to the President. 6 Q When you came over to the Clinton 7 White House, were there discussions about the 8 Privacy Act and its application, that you 9 remember? 10 A In what way? What do you mean? 11 Q Did somebody tell you, for example, 12 that you need to do X, Y or Z in order to 13 make sure that you meet Privacy Act 14 requirements? 15 A Well, it was certainly addressed in 16 the Counsel's Office. I don't recall that 17 being covered in the President's Office. 18 Q How was it addressed in the 19 Counsel's Office? 20 A This was one of the things I 21 discussed with Vince Foster and, again, with 22 Steve Neuwirth. We would have many, many 482 1 requests for information, either through the 2 mail or telephonically, and so -- 3 Q I'm sorry, finish your answer. 4 A This was one of the topics 5 discussed when the offer was first presented 6 to me in terms of areas. 7 Q The offer of your employment in the 8 Counsel's Office? 9 A Right. 10 Q Have you read the Privacy Act? 11 A I have no recollection right now of 12 what it says. I more or less vaguely 13 remember the statement that we included on 14 pertinent pieces of paper in the Department 15 of Defense, so I don't know that I would have 16 more information than that right now. 17 I think most civil servants have a 18 working knowledge, as I believe I did, which 19 would be not to release or disseminate 20 information of a personal nature without 21 clearance. 22 MS. SHAPIRO: Can we go off the 483 1 record for just one moment? I'm having 2 trouble locating something. 3 (Recess) 4 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 5 Q You're not a lawyer, correct? 6 A Correct. 7 Q Are you familiar with the 8 regulation published at 49 Federal 9 Register 23234? 10 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Do you have a copy 11 with you? 12 MS. SHAPIRO: Yes, I do. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. 14 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Okay. 15 MS. SHAPIRO: I'll mark. We can 16 call it EOP Exhibit 1. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, you're 18 representing more than EOP; aren't you? 19 MS. SHAPIRO: Yes, but I don't 20 think we could list everybody we represent on 21 there. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Who are you 484 1 representing? 2 MS. SHAPIRO: The EOP, the FBI and 3 the United States. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Why don't we just 5 make them consecutive, okay? 6 MS. SHAPIRO: That's fine. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Make it Exhibit 9. 8 (Tripp Deposition Exhibit No. 9 9 was marked for identification.) 10 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 11 Q I've handed you a copy of 49 12 Federal Register 23234 as it appeared during 13 the Reagan/Bush administrations. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: I object to that 15 clarification. No facts in evidence. 16 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 17 Q Just let me know when you're done 18 reviewing it. 19 A Do you want me to read the whole 20 thing? 21 Q No, no, I just wanted you to 22 familiarize yourself enough to know whether 485 1 you're familiar with the regulation. 2 A I wouldn't say I'm familiar with it 3 by looking at it, but. 4 Q Can you read the sentence that I've 5 highlighted on this exhibit, please? 6 A "Records of the White House Office 7 and the Counsel of Economic Advisors are not, 8 however, subject to the Privacy Act." 9 Q Does that change your opinion at 10 all as to whether you believe the Privacy Act 11 applied? 12 A No, uh-uh. 13 Q I'm going to go back for a moment 14 to your testimony this morning. You 15 testified that Joel Klein kept files on, I 16 think you described it as adversaries, but if 17 I'm wrong, correct me. 18 A That would be accurate. 19 Q You also testified that you didn't 20 have very much substantive interaction with 21 Mr. Klein, correct? 22 A I didn't work for him, and he 486 1 didn't supervise me, so other than very close 2 proximity to both he and his assistant, no. 3 Q How is it that you observed these 4 files that you spoke about this morning? 5 A Did I say I observed them? I don't 6 think I did. 7 Q How did you learn about them? 8 A He actually spoke rather openly, 9 often in conversations in which he would 10 denigrate Mr. Nussbaum rather openly and his 11 secretary. His secretary would sort of 12 follow up on things. When we would hear Joel 13 say something, I would ask Julie, I think her 14 name was, to what he was referring, and she 15 would tell us. She was very open. 16 Q Is it your testimony that he would 17 talk about files on people that he kept? 18 A No, no, no, no. 19 Q No? 20 A No, no, no. 21 Q Tell me what it is that you would 22 hear. 487 1 A I'm trying to think of a specific 2 to give you. For instance, Bernie Nussbaum 3 went to some sort of legal gathering out of 4 state. He was very hesitant to go, due to 5 the timing, but it was a commitment he had 6 made, I believe, to speak. I think he was to 7 be a keynote speaker, and I'm thinking it was 8 somewhere out west. 9 Joel Klein was already in place, 10 and certain things had happened, I believe, 11 that caused some tension in the office having 12 to do with the way that Joel attacked the 13 White Water problem, as it was referred to 14 back then. 15 One day a meeting with many people 16 adjourned, and as they all came out of Joel 17 Klein's office, he made reference to these 18 folks who were leaving about how we are all 19 good lawyers. That's understood, but it's 20 clear from what's happened to Mr. Nussbaum -- 21 and he didn't refer to him as Mr. Nussbaum -- 22 that in order to survive, we have to be good 488 1 politicians too. 2 In that conversation, he made 3 reference to ensuring that he had 4 information, and he intimated that it was 5 also on Mr. Nussbaum. 6 Q Did you understand Mr. Nussbaum to 7 be an adversary? 8 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't think she's 9 finished her response. 10 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 11 Q Have you finished your response? 12 A No, not really. This was not the 13 only time that I heard Mr. Klein make 14 reference to information about others. One 15 time was prior to and after what came to be 16 referred to as the Pink Sweater Press 17 Conference that they worked very hard 18 prepping Mrs. Clinton for. 19 I remember when they came back, he 20 jumped in the air, and whooped and said we 21 nailed it, and then in that same 22 conversation, he made reference again to 489 1 information on others. 2 Q Did he specify who the others were? 3 A No. 4 Q Did you perceive Bernie Nussbaum to 5 be an adversary of Joel Klein? 6 A What I perceived from what I was 7 seeing and what I spoke to Bruce Lindsay 8 about was that Joel Klein perceived Bernie 9 Nussbaum to possibly be, if not an adversary, 10 then an affliction, something with which they 11 had to deal. 12 Q You heard these things, but you 13 never observed files or documentation, 14 correct? 15 A I don't know that I ever saw files. 16 What I saw was in -- no, let me correct that. 17 In speaking to his assistant, and I wish, do 18 we have her name anywhere? Does anyone? 19 All right, I can't remember her 20 name. I think it was Julie. She, on more 21 than one occasion, led me to believe that 22 this is how he operated, that he maintained 490 1 information in files on others on -- she 2 didn't use the word adversaries, and I can't 3 remember what word she used. 4 She also led me to believe that 5 during the Pink Sweater Conference that the 6 people who are now in the Office of the 7 Independent Counsel, and I don't know what it 8 was called back then, and if it, I don't know 9 the timing, were considered enemies, so. 10 That was reinforced when I was 11 interviewed by them several times thereafter, 12 and it caused a great deal of concern with 13 Mr. Klein. It was shortly after that that I 14 was asked to leave. 15 MS. SHAPIRO: I'm just going to 16 take one minute to see if I'm wrapped up. 17 Let's go off the record for a moment, please. 18 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record 19 at 2:39 p.m. 20 (Recess) 21 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On the record at 22 2:54 p.m. 491 1 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 2 Q Good afternoon, Ms. Tripp. My 3 name, just for the record, is Jim Gilligan. 4 I'm also with the Department of Justice, 5 representing the White House, the FBI and the 6 United States in this matter. 7 I'd like to ask you a few questions 8 as well, beginning with your testimony this 9 morning about the Rose law firm billing 10 records; do you recall that? 11 A I do. 12 Q Do I recall your testimony 13 correctly that you believe you saw the Rose 14 billing records in Mr. Foster's safe on the 15 same day that you saw the Dale file? 16 A That's my recollection. I could be 17 wrong. I know that what I saw on the screen 18 was what I believe I saw in the safe. 19 Q If you are correct about the day, 20 that would have been sometime in May of 1993, 21 correct? 22 A Again, I'm hesitant to date it. 492 1 Q You saw the Dale file about the 2 time of the Travel Office firings, correct? 3 A I'm not sure of the timing of the 4 meeting, so following, it could have been 5 following the firing. I'm not sure. 6 Q The firing was in May of 1993, 7 correct? 8 A So you have told -- your co-counsel 9 has told me. 10 Q Could you describe for us the safe 11 that you saw the billing records in? 12 A I really can't describe today what 13 the two file cabinets that locked looked 14 like, except that they were relatively short, 15 and I believe fit under a slanted draftsman 16 type table on the side wall of Mr. Nussbaum's 17 office. 18 Q Was this a cabinet that had two 19 drawers that pulled out? 20 A They were. 21 Q One under the other? 22 A They were short safes with front 493 1 opening drawers. 2 Q Did these drawers have hanging 3 files inside? 4 A I don't know that they hung. I 5 know that they were vertically upright, and 6 actually, I don't recall ever opening the 7 second one that looked much the same on the 8 exterior. 9 Q The second safe or the second 10 drawer? 11 A Second safe. I really don't recall 12 two drawers in the first one. I just 13 remember it opening, and the files were this 14 way (indicating). 15 Q Where within the safe did you see 16 the billing records? 17 A Somewhere in the drawer. I don't 18 recall with any specificity where I saw them, 19 except in that drawer where I was going 20 through, and I don't recall having any clue 21 what they were at the time, except that there 22 was something, during the time that I saw it, 494 1 and it was very brief, that made me believe 2 it belonged to Mrs. Clinton and, thus, Vince, 3 but I don't know what that was. 4 Q Do you remember actually handling 5 them? 6 A I don't believe I handled them at 7 all. 8 Q To the best of your recollection, 9 can you tell me what they looked like? 10 A The only thing I can tell you with 11 any certainty is that, and again, this is 12 only my impression, my impression was that 13 they looked just like what was up on the 14 screen on the news show. 15 Q Would it be more accurate to say 16 that when you saw them on the news show, your 17 impression was that what you saw on the TV 18 was like what you had seen in the drawer? 19 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Do you understand 20 the question? 21 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I'm sorry; I 22 thought that's what I had said. I'm sorry. 495 1 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 2 Q Understandably you find the kinds 3 of questions I'm about to ask tedious, but 4 nevertheless, the circumstances require me to 5 ask them. 6 Do you remember anything about the 7 color? 8 A Oh, I don't. 9 Q About the size paper? 10 A I just remember thinking there were 11 folds. 12 Q Like computer paper? 13 A I don't remember. I remember 14 thinking folds. Again, these are just my 15 impressions. I am not in a position to tell 16 you that what I saw on the screen was what 17 was in the safe. 18 Q Let's talk for a moment about what 19 you saw on the screen. Can you recollect for 20 us when that was? 21 A No, I'm sorry; I can't. It was 22 after they were found. 496 1 Q Is what you saw a news report about 2 the discovery of the billing records? 3 A I believe it was some sort of 4 coverage about billing records, and all I 5 remember is seeing this on the screen this 6 way, lines, and thinking what I thought, what 7 I've already testified to. It's not 8 something I had seen elsewhere. Maybe I 9 should be more clear. 10 Q You made the connection because 11 what you saw on the screen looked like what 12 you recollected seeing in the safe drawer, 13 but that you had not seen elsewhere? 14 A Yeah, my personal framework of 15 reference was no exposure to anything that 16 looked like that. 17 So having seen it in what I 18 perceived to be Bernie's safe, even though it 19 was used by Vince Foster, and I had no idea 20 what it was, except some associate citing, 21 that made me think of Vince, further 22 associating it with what I saw on the screen 497 1 made me think that that's what I had seen. 2 Q To the best that we've been able to 3 determine, the discovery of the billing 4 records occurred in early January of 1996. 5 Does that help refresh your recollection of 6 when you saw them on TV? 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection to putting 8 facts not in evidence in front of the 9 witness. 10 THE WITNESS: Well, all I remember 11 is that I was certainly no longer at the 12 White House, and I believe I was at the 13 Pentagon; so I would certainly take your word 14 for the timing. 15 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 16 Q When is the first time that you 17 ever told anyone under any circumstances 18 about this impression of yours? 19 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Other than 20 counsel? 21 MR. GILLIGAN: Other than counsel. 22 THE WITNESS: I believe at the time 498 1 that I saw it on TV. 2 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 3 Q Whom did you tell it to? 4 A Several people. 5 Q Do you remember who they were? 6 A I don't. 7 Q Were they friends of yours? 8 A May well have even been co-workers 9 at the Pentagon. I just don't remember. I 10 don't remember if I even knew Monica Lewinsky 11 then. I don't know that -- I just don't 12 remember. 13 I remember thinking, oh, that's 14 what those things are, but I don't remember 15 to whom I spoke. I know I spoke of it, not 16 widely. 17 Q What I'd like next to talk to you 18 about, Ms. Tripp, is your observation of 19 stacks of files in Mr. Kennedy's office. One 20 moment. 21 One last question about the billing 22 records occurs to me. Were they in a folder 499 1 of any kind? 2 A You know, I don't know, because -- 3 the way I leafed through them, I can just 4 tell you that my impression was that what I 5 saw looked like what was on the screen, or 6 vice versa, and I don't know, they could very 7 well have been in a folder. There were 8 folders in the safe. 9 Q Were you at home when you saw them 10 on TV? 11 A I don't remember. We had a TV in 12 the office as well. So I don't, I don't 13 remember. I remember being very surprised at 14 what I saw. 15 Q All right, let's talk about stacks 16 of files in Mr. Kennedy's office. 17 Now Mr. Kennedy's office was within 18 a suite of offices, correct? 19 A Well, his was the largest office; 20 that was the destination. There was a 21 reception suite for clerical support, and, I 22 believe, there were little cubbys off of 500 1 that, as well. I don't know if there was 2 another one on the other end. I never went 3 down that far. 4 Q In the reception area, who sat 5 there, as far as you can recollect? 6 A There was a young man whose name I 7 don't recall, and Betsy Pond or Debra Gorham 8 or whomever came before. I don't know anyone 9 else. I don't remember. I went to see 10 either Deb or Betsy or Bill. 11 Q As you walked in to the front door, 12 can we call it a suite, are you comfortable 13 with that term? 14 A Sure. 15 Q As you walked in the main door of 16 the suite, where was Ms. Pond's desk located? 17 A To your immediate left. 18 Q Where was Mr. Kennedy's personal 19 office, to the left or to the right? 20 A Actually to the rear of Betsy's 21 area, and if you were going left or right, it 22 would be to the left. 501 1 Q Other than the desk occupied by 2 Ms. Pond and this other gentleman, what other 3 matter of furniture was there in the 4 reception area? 5 A Other than desks? 6 Q Yes. 7 A A couple chairs, desks. I mean, it 8 was office. 9 Q Were there cabinets of any kind? 10 A There may well have been. It was a 11 very tight area. There was a little, between 12 Betsy's area and the door into Mr. Kennedy's 13 office, it seems as though there was a little 14 cubby of some sort, and I just remember a lot 15 of congestion. I don't remember what the 16 congestion was. 17 Q Were there any safes of any kind in 18 the reception area or this cubby leading to 19 Mr. Kennedy's office? 20 A I don't know. I remember 21 tightness. 22 Q If there were any cabinets, or 502 1 safes or what have you in this reception 2 area, do you have any knowledge of any of 3 their contents? 4 A No. 5 Q Did anybody ever tell you what they 6 contained, as far as you can recall? 7 A What what contained? 8 Q Any of the cabinets or safes in the 9 outer reception area? 10 A I don't recall there being any; so 11 we wouldn't have discussed. There may well 12 have been; I just don't recall, and I don't 13 recall having a conversation about it. 14 Q If you were standing then, say, 15 next to the desk that Ms. Pond sat at when 16 she sat there, would you be able to see into 17 Mr. Kennedy's office from there? 18 A As I recall, Betsy could have faced 19 one of two ways, neither of which would have 20 been facing Mr. Kennedy's office if you were 21 seated at her desk. 22 If you were inputting computer data 503 1 as she frequently was, she would be facing 2 the wall directly opposite and away from his 3 desk. If she turned to the left, she would 4 more or less be welcoming someone entering 5 the suite. 6 Q If she turned to her left? 7 A Uh-huh. 8 Q Suppose you were standing next to 9 her desk, say, you yourself visiting. 10 A Well, you mean just coming right in 11 the door? 12 Q Suppose you came right in the door. 13 You said her desk was immediately to the 14 left; is that correct? 15 A Uh-huh. 16 Q Suppose you were standing right in 17 front of her desk and chatting with her. 18 A Well, there's no room to stand 19 right there, because that's where the door 20 was; so you would have to actually enter in 21 to the suite, and if you wanted to talk to 22 her, you'd end up being behind her chair, so 504 1 to speak, sort of, almost in the cubby. 2 Q Would you be able to see into 3 Mr. Kennedy's office from there? 4 A If the door were open, yes. 5 Q What would you be able to see? 6 A I don't remember now. I mean, my 7 sense is you could see into his office. In 8 fact, I know I was able to see into his 9 office. 10 Q You've testified that you've 11 actually been in Mr. Kennedy's personal 12 office, as opposed to the suite? 13 A A couple, two or three times, yes, 14 at least. 15 Q Can you describe the physical 16 layout of Mr. Kennedy's personal office, as 17 best you can recall? 18 A I can give you my impressions. 19 Q Sure. 20 A I seem to remember a fireplace, 21 surrounding mantle to the right, flush 22 against the wall. I remember more than one 505 1 table, and I remember his desk being centered 2 facing the mantle and surround. It seems as 3 though there were several tables. I remember 4 photographs of his children on the mantle and 5 lots and lots and lots of file folders. 6 Q Do you recall there being any file 7 cabinets or safes anywhere inside his office? 8 A I didn't recall that until I 9 skimmed his testimony, and I saw that he 10 testified that there were such. I don't 11 recall those. 12 Q Do you have any recollection, as 13 you walked into Mr. Kennedy's personal 14 office, to your left being any sort of a 15 small alcove or cubby of any kind? 16 A Vaguely, actually. I don't know 17 why. But not the same as the cubby in front 18 of it. 19 Q I understand. I understand. Do 20 you have any recollection of whether down 21 this, shall we call it the interior cubby I 22 just mentioned, there were any cabinets or 506 1 safes of any kind? 2 A I don't remember. I have this 3 overwhelming memory of stacks of whatever 4 they were. 5 Q To the extent you may have 6 observed, when Mr. Kennedy was working in his 7 office, did he keep the door to his personal 8 office open or closed? 9 A Well, I don't know that I observed 10 it enough to really give you an accurate 11 assessment of how he kept his door. 12 On the few times that I was over 13 there, for the most part, and I can't tell 14 you that he was in or out of the office 15 during these times, because I really never 16 made note of it, generally speaking, when I 17 was over there, his door was open. 18 Q You didn't make note generally of 19 whether he was actually in there or not at 20 the time? 21 A I don't think I actually made note, 22 and I don't know that I asked Betsy either; 507 1 so I just don't remember. I -- well. 2 Q Go ahead, please. 3 A Well, I don't know, depending on 4 where I was standing, whether I even would 5 have seen him at his desk if he had been at 6 his desk. 7 Q Depending on where you were 8 standing, you might not have been able to see 9 the desk? 10 A Right. 11 Q Could you tell us, please, what 12 your understanding of Mr. Kennedy's job 13 duties as Associate White House Counsel were? 14 A Well, for the longest time, it 15 seemed, at least in the beginning, my 16 understanding had been, and it was explained 17 to me actually, when we had to compile a 18 Chief of Staff memo for areas of 19 responsibility for the ever-growing Counsel's 20 Office staff, I believe he was in charge of 21 vetting. There came a time when he was 22 removed from vetting, and I don't recall at 508 1 this point what it was he was assigned to. 2 There seemed to be some contention over the 3 change in the job duties. 4 Q When you used the term vetting, can 5 you explain to me what your understanding of 6 that term is? 7 A Well, only in terms of usage in 8 what we, how we used the term in the White 9 House at that time. It was the review of 10 pertinent materials in an effort to ascertain 11 or determine a person's suitability for 12 political appointment within the 13 Administration. 14 Q Generally speaking, what were the 15 pertinent materials that were reviewed, as 16 you understood it? 17 A I don't know firsthand, except some 18 of the things that Mr. Foster showed me as it 19 pertained to one of the Supreme Court 20 Justices now. 21 Q Did it involve -- and I'd like to 22 caution you; I'm asking for absolutely no 509 1 specifics or names here, but just general 2 categories -- was there tax information? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Financial information? 5 A Yes. 6 Q What other kinds of information can 7 you recall along those lines? 8 A Well, you just happened to hit on 9 the two that Mr. Foster showed me, as it 10 pertained to someone else, so. 11 Q Good enough. Regarding your use of 12 the phrase political appointment, what 13 positions did you understand the vetting 14 process to involve? 15 A Well, at the time, I believe I 16 understood it to be senior level 17 appointments, not necessarily Senate 18 confirmation only, but far more senior than I 19 would have been. 20 Q Supreme Court Justices being an 21 example? 22 A Yes. 510 1 Q Cabinet Secretaries being another 2 example? 3 A Yes. 4 Q What other kind of examples would 5 you give? 6 A I think I would say the next couple 7 of rungs down from those you've just named. 8 Q Such as Assistant Secretaries? 9 A I believe so. 10 Q What about White House staff? 11 A White House staff, meaning? 12 Q Anyone at any level who worked in 13 the White House? 14 A I don't know. 15 Q What about senior executive service 16 positions? Did it involve those? 17 A I don't know. 18 Q Did it involve various boards and 19 commissions that the President had 20 established? 21 A Yes. 22 Q This may come back to the occasion 511 1 you mentioned with Mr. Foster just a moment 2 ago, but have you ever seen the contents of a 3 vetting file? And please, no names or 4 specifics. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Vague and 6 ambiguous, lacks foundation. 7 MR. ZACCAGNINI: You can answer it. 8 Don't use any names. 9 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 10 Q You may answer it. 11 A I've seen some things from a couple 12 of high profile vetting files. 13 Q How do you know that the files you 14 saw this information from were so-called 15 vetting files? 16 A Well, they were described to me 17 that way. 18 Q By? 19 A Mr. Foster. Excuse me, on the one. 20 Q On the one? 21 A Yes. The other one, we were 22 getting it ready for -- it was a later, far 512 1 later time, getting it ready for a senior 2 Counsel's Office staff member to make a 3 flight out to meet with a prospective -- 4 Q Nominee? 5 A Nominee, and we were adding -- we 6 were assisting in getting him out very 7 quickly, and the assistant told me what we 8 were doing. This was kind of a rush. 9 Q Was the reference to a vetting file 10 the file you were compiling for the senior 11 White House Counsel member to take with him 12 or her? 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Leading. 14 THE WITNESS: Well, it existed 15 already, and we were just putting copies of 16 things in it. 17 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 18 Q Other than putting copies of things 19 in this file, you don't know where this file 20 originated; do you? 21 A Well, I was told that it came from 22 Bill Kennedy's office. 513 1 Q Do you have any recollection of 2 what that file folder looked like? 3 A Well, as I've said before, it 4 didn't look like the other ones, but I'm sure 5 you don't think that means anything. 6 Q The circumstances require me, and 7 again, I know you find this tedious. No one 8 else does, of course. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Ask her how she 10 really finds it, Mr. Gilligan. The word may 11 not be tedious. 12 MR. GILLIGAN: It's a good enough 13 one for me. 14 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 15 Q This file that you were adding 16 documents to, do you remember anything about 17 its color? 18 A Thick, this one was thick. 19 Q You remember it was thick. How 20 thick? 21 A Pretty thick. 22 Q An inch thick? 514 1 A It seemed thicker. 2 Q Thicker than an inch? 3 A It seemed real thick. 4 Q Two inches, three inches? 5 A I'm not real good at estimating 6 size. It just seemed fat. 7 Q I've just handed you, the video 8 camera will show, a ruler. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Is that in 10 centimeters or inches? 11 MR. GILLIGAN: It's both. It's 12 both. Fair question, it's both. 13 THE WITNESS: First of all, this 14 was a long time ago. I would say 15 conservatively speaking, it was to about here 16 (indicating). Do you want to read this? 17 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I would estimate 18 that to be exactly four centimeters or an 19 inch and one half. 20 THE WITNESS: Gee, is that all that 21 is? See, I told you I was bad at estimating. 22 It was about that thick. I just remember 515 1 thinking it seemed like a lot of information. 2 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 3 Q Other than the documents that you 4 put into that file or assisted in putting 5 into that file, do you have any notion of 6 what its contents were? 7 A Only what I was told, personal 8 information on this individual. That was 9 different from the other one. 10 Q How was it different? 11 A The other one I knew precisely what 12 it was I had in my hands, because I was 13 dealing with this other issue, where this one 14 was merely helping them get him out the door 15 to go meet with this prospective nominee. 16 Q Let's talk about, then, the Foster 17 one. 18 Mr. Foster showed you tax 19 information, and I'm sorry, what else was it 20 from this file? 21 A Well, you had asked me whether it 22 included financial or tax information. 516 1 Q Right, right. 2 A It did; this one did. 3 Q Mr. Foster told you that? 4 A Well, he handed me some things. 5 Q He told you that these were from 6 the vetting file? 7 A Yes, and what to do with them. 8 Q Did he actually tell you that this 9 is so and so's vetting file? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Did he tell you that he had 12 acquired it from Mr. Kennedy? 13 A Actually, what he -- how he had 14 acquired the things that I had in my hand, he 15 had actually traveled to this individual's 16 location. 17 Q Mr. Foster had? 18 A Yeah. Met with this individual and 19 brought back, it was my understanding, 20 brought back some of this information, and 21 after he had done what he needed to do with 22 it, he wanted me to return the originals to a 517 1 member of that individual's family. I don't 2 think we want to go any further on this. 3 Q No, I'm not encouraging you to. 4 Please don't, at least with respect to the 5 rest of my questions in that regard. 6 Did you see the file that 7 Mr. Foster maintained these documents in? 8 A I did. 9 Q Did Mr. Foster tell you that was 10 the vetting file on this individual? 11 A Well, he told me that he was taking 12 this material from the file that was being 13 used to vet this individual. 14 Q I'm sorry. I'm confused, because I 15 thought you said the material had come from 16 the individual himself. 17 A Right. But Mr. Foster traveled 18 back to the White House and had materials 19 with him for the file. He then copied the 20 material and gave me back the originals. 21 Q The copies were put in the vetting 22 file? 518 1 A Yes, and the originals were 2 returned. I was to return them. 3 Q Right, and my question is, did you 4 see the file that Mr. Foster put them in? 5 A He had in his arm, under his arm a 6 folder with sides that he took out this 7 thing, it's not -- it wasn't paper; it was 8 other materials, and, well, it was paper, but 9 it wasn't looseleaf paper, and instructed me 10 what to do with that, and I believe we had an 11 MFR, a memo for the record together, I think 12 he -- no, it was a receipt; it was a receipt. 13 He told me, when I said do we need 14 copies, he said no, I've got them here in the 15 whatever file, and I don't remember how he 16 referenced it. I understood it to mean this 17 gentleman's vetting file. 18 Q You're not clear exactly how he 19 referenced the file? 20 A No. 21 Q Did you ever see him return this 22 file to Mr. Kennedy? 519 1 A I don't remember that, no. He may 2 well have. 3 Q You don't know? 4 A No, I don't remember if Mr. Kennedy 5 had accompanied him on that trip. He may 6 well have. 7 Q Other than these two occasions, do 8 you have any recollection of ever seeing a 9 vetting file? 10 A On another failed Cabinet 11 appointment, I saw a vetting file. 12 Q Did somebody tell you that this was 13 this individual's vetting file? 14 A Yes -- well, I think there's 15 another word that's used, and I may be using 16 vetting inappropriately, but it meant 17 vetting. 18 Q What's the other word? 19 A If I knew it, I would be using it. 20 But, yes, it was stated. It wasn't -- I 21 didn't surmise this. 22 Q You saw the file that that 520 1 reference was being made to on this occasion? 2 A The contents of the file. 3 Q Did you see the file folder itself? 4 A Yes, but I -- not enough to say it 5 was a yellow legal file. Remember that I've 6 testified that the one that I spoke of just 7 prior to the one I'm speaking of now had 8 sides to it. 9 Q Had sides to it like a box? 10 A No, a file folder with sides, 11 things wouldn't slide out. 12 Q Like an accordion folder? 13 A Something. It had sides. I don't 14 remember specifically more than that. 15 Q In terms of seeing vetting files, 16 you also recalled seeing Mr. Inman's file; 17 did you not? 18 A That was the one to which I 19 referred about getting Mr. Klein ready for a 20 flight. 21 Q We all know that Mr. Inman was 22 nominated for Secretary of Defense, correct? 521 1 A He was. 2 Q Let's talk about that for a moment. 3 You testified that it was during 4 the vetting of Mr. Inman for his nomination 5 to Secretary of Defense that you first became 6 familiar with and began to notice vetting 7 files; do you recall testifying to that? 8 A Well, I think that I paid more 9 attention during that time frame. I was 10 interested in defense anyway. I was more 11 exposed, because this particular process on 12 Mr. Inman seemed to center around the West 13 Wing office of the Counsel's Office, as 14 opposed to over in Bill Kennedy's area. 15 Q Is it fair to say then, that it's 16 your observations in dealings with this file, 17 that is the way that you gained your 18 familiarity with what you understand a 19 vetting file to be? 20 A No, no. I think I had seen vetting 21 files prior to that. Bill Kennedy frequently 22 had vetting files that he brought over when 522 1 he was summoned for meetings with Bernie, 2 specifically on vetting issues. 3 There were a couple of failed 4 vetting files for Cabinet level secretaries 5 that didn't make it that were in and around 6 the office in Bernie's area long after their 7 nominations had fallen through. 8 So, yeah, I had seen them. I 9 didn't, certainly, go through them or study 10 them. 11 Q Right. I'll refer you to page 197 12 of the transcript from December 14th. 13 A Okay. 14 Q Do you see beginning on line 2? 15 A Right, uh-huh. 16 Q Is it still your testimony, then, 17 that it's in connection with Mr. Inman's file 18 that you began noticing and paying more 19 attention to vetting files than you had the 20 previous months? 21 A Well, as I said, Mr. Inman's case 22 was handled very visibly in the West Wing 523 1 Counsel's Office, so I was exposed to it a 2 great deal, but I had certainly seen other 3 files and equally high profile. I don't know 4 that I had paid much attention prior to that. 5 Q Let's talk about the Inman file 6 specifically. Do you recall when Mr. Inman 7 was under consideration for the post at the 8 Defense Department? 9 A It was definitely during Joel 10 Klein's tenure. 11 Q Does December of 1993 sound about 12 right? 13 A Well, that's when Joel Klein came 14 on, I believe. 15 Q Joel Klein had come on as Deputy 16 White House Counsel, correct? 17 A That's correct. 18 Q He was at that time occupying 19 Mr. Foster's old office? 20 A Correct. 21 Q Pardon me if I'm being repetitive 22 here, but I just want to make sure the record 524 1 is clear. Do you recall anything about the 2 color of this file? 3 A No. 4 Q Do you recall anything about any 5 writing of any kind on the outside of the 6 file? 7 A No. 8 Q Did it have Mr. Inman's name on it? 9 A I do believe I saw his name. I 10 don't know whether it was inside, or if it 11 was on some of the things that we placed in 12 there. 13 Q Was it handwritten? 14 A I don't remember. 15 Q Is this the file you said that was 16 about an inch and a half thick? 17 A It seemed thick, that thick, yes. 18 Q Other than the documents that you 19 put in it, did you ever see the contents of 20 this file? 21 A When we put them in, I remember it 22 was open, but I don't recall what was in 525 1 there. I mean, this was during one of the 2 times that his assistant made a comment to me 3 to let me know that Joel Klein seemed to 4 gather information on people. So you don't 5 want to get on his bad side kind of thing. 6 Q Again, pardon me if I'm being 7 repetitive here, but other than the documents 8 that you placed in this file, do you know who 9 prepared it? 10 A I really didn't place. I was 11 assisting this person, and I don't even know 12 if it was she on that particular date. I 13 believe it was, though. 14 Q Julie? 15 A I think so. Because it was at that 16 desk, I remember it being at Deb Gorham's old 17 desk where we were putting stuff together in 18 the file, because it was going with Mr. Klein 19 onto the plane, and it sticks in my mind 20 because there had been so much controversy in 21 the office about him, and we no sooner got 22 him on the plane that we literally had to 526 1 call the airline and pull him off the plane 2 as it taxied down the runway, and I think 3 what had happened was that Mr. Inman withdrew 4 as he was flying out to Denver. So that one 5 sticks in my mind. 6 Q What I was trying to get at, 7 though, is do you know who prepared the file 8 other than your involvement? 9 A It came out of Joel Klein's office. 10 I don't know who prepared it. 11 Q Do you know where it was stored 12 when it was not in use? 13 A I don't. 14 Q I take it you saw Mr. Klein leave 15 with this file? 16 A I believe his assistant or someone 17 in that role that day placed it in his 18 briefcase. 19 Q Other than that, did you ever see 20 it leave the West Wing suite? 21 A I don't have a recollection of it 22 going back and forth. 527 1 Q Did you ever see this file in 2 Mr. Kennedy's office? 3 A I don't recall seeing it there, no. 4 Q Or in Mr. Kennedy's possession? 5 A I just don't remember if it was or 6 it wasn't. I don't know that Mr. Klein kept 7 custody of it. I don't know that. 8 Q Is it fair to say that, as far as 9 you know, this could well have been a file 10 that Mr. Klein separately maintained on the 11 Inman nomination, apart from his vetting 12 file? 13 A Was the question, is it possible? 14 Q Yes. 15 A I suppose so. 16 Q Did you ever see files that looked 17 like the Inman file in Mr. Kennedy's office? 18 A I think I saw more files that 19 looked like that in Beth Nolan's office. 20 Q Again, pardon the question, but is 21 there any way you can tell me how the Inman 22 file differed in appearance from the files 528 1 you saw stacked up in Mr. Kennedy's office? 2 A It looked completely different to 3 me. There were oodles of the others and the 4 vetting files that I perceived, and let me 5 not misspeak. The files I thought were 6 vetting files and to which were referred by 7 others as vetting files looked different, and 8 I only recall seeing those in the various 9 instances I've testified to earlier today and 10 in Beth Nolan's area. Cathy Whelan's area. 11 Q You say the files in Kennedy's 12 office looked completely different from the 13 vetting files? 14 A To me. 15 Q To you, I understand. 16 A To me. 17 Q I'm sorry; I'm going to take 18 another crack at it here. Is there any way 19 you can tell me specifically how they 20 differed, one type from the other? 21 A No, I mean, I don't know how to be 22 more specific than that. I'm afraid to say 529 1 anything that is not completely accurate for 2 fear that it won't be completely accurate. 3 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Excuse us one 4 second. 5 (Counsel conferred with witness) 6 MR. ZACCAGNINI: One thing she 7 wands to add to her testimony. 8 MR. GILLIGAN: Sure. 9 THE WITNESS: I was told that I 10 also saw a vetting file, relatively thick 11 vetting file, on a since confirmed senior 12 Cabinet official when I was working down in 13 the Oval Office, Immediate Office of the 14 President, and so I'm pretty confident that 15 those that I've testified to earlier as being 16 vetting files were what were referred to as 17 vetting files during that time period. 18 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 19 Q Can you describe in any way, shape 20 or form the vetting files you believe you saw 21 in Ms. Nolan's office? 22 A They weren't remarkably alike as 530 1 the other ones were, in my opinion, that the 2 ones that I, in my mind, believed to be FBI 3 files were remarkably alike. 4 The ones that I saw in Beth Nolan's 5 office and in Cathy Whelan's area were 6 reminiscent to me of the ones that I really 7 would choose not to name right now, but were 8 senior Administration officials that had been 9 identified for me as vetting files. 10 Q How often did you see these files 11 in Ms. Nolan's office? 12 A It seems to me that I saw them more 13 frequently later, and I think it was because, 14 if I'm not mistaken, she later took vetting, 15 and I'm not clear on that. I think, I 16 believe she took over vetting when 17 Mr. Kennedy had his nanny tax problem or 18 something. 19 Q In any event, after Mr. Kennedy no 20 longer had responsibility for that process? 21 A Correct. 22 Q Where was her office located? 531 1 A Also on that floor, the same floor 2 as Mr. Kennedy's, and very close by, 3 actually. 4 Q You were not personally involved in 5 the vetting process; were you? 6 A Well, I was drawn into it a couple 7 of times, exposed to material that I would 8 consider to be private. 9 Q Such as you've already testified 10 to? 11 A Other times, yeah, but not -- was 12 that part of my job description? Is that 13 what you're saying? 14 Q Right. 15 A Well, no, but obviously, I was 16 exposed to it. 17 Q Is it fair to say that your 18 impression of the vetting process is based on 19 what others have told you? 20 A I'm not sure I understand. I mean, 21 I certainly drew some conclusions based on 22 some of the things I was asked to do. 532 1 Q You were not routinely involved in 2 vetting matters? 3 A No, no, no, uh-uh. 4 Q You would have no way of being 5 confident that your understanding of the 6 process is accurate or complete; would you? 7 MR. ZACCAGNINI: That's a leading 8 question, in case you didn't know. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me object to that 10 too. Thank you, Mr. Zaccagnini. I was 11 falling asleep. 12 THE WITNESS: You're falling 13 asleep? Your question is, would I have any 14 way of knowing -- 15 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 16 Q Your exposure to the vetting 17 process was limited, correct? 18 A I don't know how limited you can be 19 when you sit where we sat, and we were privy 20 to just a great deal of information and 21 interaction about a subject that was very 22 sensitive having to do with the vetting of 533 1 Judges. 2 The Administration was taking a 3 great big hit for not taking advantage of the 4 many slots that they were allowed to fill. 5 Vetting was a very high profile issue in our 6 office; so did I have daily contact with 7 vetting files and issues? No. But was I 8 exposed to the subject and on some levels to 9 the level of detail that would be less than 10 desirable? Yeah. I mean, I was exposed to 11 quite a bit on that issue. 12 Q The point is, the nuts and bolts of 13 the vetting process were not part of your 14 day-to-day job description; is that correct? 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Leading, 16 vague and ambiguous in terms of these nuts 17 and bolts. 18 MR. ZACCAGNINI: You can answer it. 19 THE WITNESS: I didn't vet people. 20 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 21 Q You were not exposed on a daily 22 basis to the vetting process as it operated 534 1 in Mr. Kennedy's office; were you? 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading. 3 THE WITNESS: I wasn't exposed to 4 the vetting process in Mr. Kennedy's office. 5 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 6 Q Can you recall in terms of seeing 7 stacks of files in Mr. Kennedy's office when 8 was the first time? 9 A I don't know. You can read back 10 what I've said before, which is about as, 11 probably as accurate as I can get. 12 Q You said page 176, if you care to 13 look with your counsel, that it was early on. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Why don't you let her 15 look? 16 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 17 Q Let me approach it this way. Let's 18 talk about your conversation with Mr. Kennedy 19 where you say he indicated that the stacks of 20 files were not vetting files. 21 You said, I believe, at page 176 22 that this conversation occurred early on? 535 1 A Uh-huh. 2 Q Can you be more specific than early 3 on? 4 A Well, it had to have been when I 5 was in the Counsel's Office, and I just 6 remember, Bill Kennedy was getting a lot of 7 flak on different issues, one of which was 8 the completely cumbersome and slow moving 9 vetting process. 10 So relatively early on when I was 11 over there, the first time I noticed the 12 stacks and stacks of files, I was astounded 13 and had a new appreciation for why the 14 vetting process was so completely cumbersome. 15 But his hand movement and 16 indication to me was that that's not what I 17 was looking at; so I can't be more specific. 18 This isn't something I spent a great deal of 19 time taking notes about. 20 Q Right. 21 A His indication to me was that this 22 wasn't what was keeping him up late. 536 1 Q You testified at page 180 of the 2 transcript that this conversation occurred 3 before the time of Mr. Inman's nomination. 4 A Mr. Inman, remember, I said, was 5 during Mr. Klein's tenure. Klein didn't show 6 up until December. 7 Q Right. 8 A So to the best of my knowledge 9 anyway, I believe it was December of '93. 10 Q The conversation with Mr. Kennedy 11 would have occurred before December of 1993 12 then? 13 A The first one having to do with 14 vetting, yes, certainly. 15 Q In terms of benchmarks, and it's an 16 unfortunate one, but do you recall whether 17 Mr. Foster was still alive at the time? 18 A It seems to me that he was. 19 Q This would have been prior to 20 July 20, 1993? 21 A Yeah, and I think that sort of goes 22 with my early on thing. 537 1 Now I can't tell you that the day 2 that I asked him about the files, thinking 3 they were vetting files, if that day there 4 were 800 or 2,000 files in there. There were 5 many. 6 It seems over time -- and I'll say 7 this, over time, the files never diminished. 8 In fact, they grew, even after he had long 9 since stopped, or at least it was my 10 impression, he had long since stopped being 11 involved in vetting, so. 12 Q Do I understand correctly that the 13 day you had the conversation with Mr. Kennedy 14 about the stacks of files, that was not the 15 first time you had noted the stacks of files; 16 is that right? 17 A I'm very unclear as to what day I 18 had this conversation with Bill Kennedy. I 19 just know that I remember thinking no wonder 20 he's so behind. There's no way any one 21 person or a staff, tiny staff, could possibly 22 make headway. It's no wonder. 538 1 But I just don't know when the 2 first time I saw the files, or the day this 3 took place. I just don't know. It didn't 4 seem all that important at the time. 5 Q Let's focus on the conversation 6 then. You testified, and this is at page 179 7 of the transcript, that you asked, are these 8 files of those yet to be vetted, or those in 9 the midst of being vetted? Are those the 10 precise words you used, as best you can 11 recall? 12 A I have no clue what the precise 13 words are. It's a general idea, I believe. 14 Q Do you specifically recall using 15 the term vetting? 16 A I believe that's the word I've 17 always used when it comes to what I perceived 18 vetting to be and what I thought his area of 19 responsibility was. 20 Q Is it possible you used another 21 term like political appointments? 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Calls for 539 1 speculation. 2 THE WITNESS: No, I don't think so. 3 Remember, I perceived, because of my unique 4 sort of vantage point, I thought of everyone 5 but the permanent support staff as political. 6 So it would have been unlikely for me to say 7 that. 8 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 9 Q At page 179 of the transcript, you 10 testified that he said in response to your 11 question, these aren't those; they are over 12 there. 13 Again, are those the precise words 14 he used? 15 A I doubt seriously these are the 16 precise words he used. I never intended this 17 to be verbatim. It was my impression of sort 18 of an overview of the conversation. 19 Q Do you have any recollection of the 20 precise words he used? 21 A Well, I think these are as close to 22 what I can recall. 540 1 Q You said he pointed in the 2 direction of Beth Nolan's office? 3 A Toward that way, past the 4 fireplace, down that way. That was my 5 perception at the time. 6 Q He may have been pointing at, for 7 all you know, he may have been pointing at 8 something in the outer reception area of the 9 suite; is that fair to say? 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Calls for 11 speculation, leading. 12 THE WITNESS: For all I know. 13 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 14 Q You say he pointed towards the 15 fireplace? 16 A Over that way. 17 Q Over that way was Beth Nolan's 18 office? 19 A You know, I am very uncomfortable 20 giving this level of detail to the minutia 21 of -- and I know this is very important, but 22 it's also very important that I not overstate 541 1 or read in all these years later to a 2 conversation that I didn't really at the time 3 think was all that critical. 4 So, I've attempted to be as 5 forthright and as forthcoming as I can be, 6 but when you dissect every single little 7 word, I can't be more clearer than I've been, 8 without stretching my mind to the point of 9 embellishment, which I refuse to do, so. 10 Q I understand your frustration, 11 Ms. Tripp. I've witnessed it with other 12 witnesses. It's the unfortunate nature of 13 this situation. 14 Now again, certainly I don't want 15 you to embellish, at the time of this 16 conversation, do you recall there being any 17 files in Mr. Kennedy's office other than 18 these stacks of files? 19 A Yes, there were other files. I 20 don't recall if those happened to be the ones 21 he pointed at that moment, but there were 22 certainly other files. He had tables, as 542 1 well as floor space, that were all covered. 2 Q I can only go by what the written 3 transcript says of our last session. You 4 asked Mr. Kennedy, at least as best you can 5 recall, whether these were files of people in 6 the middle of the vetting process, and he 7 said no. 8 Is it possible that these were 9 files in the stacks of people who had 10 completed the vetting process? 11 A Well, actually, what I remember 12 from that, the genesis of that conversation 13 was, is this what's holding you up? Is this 14 what is the cause of all the frustration, you 15 know, all these many, many files that you 16 have to work through? My understanding of 17 his question -- of the answer to that 18 question is no; this isn't that stuff. 19 Q These files are not what's holding 20 him up? 21 A In other words, we were speaking of 22 the vetting process, and my understanding 543 1 what he said at that time was no; these are 2 not; that's those over there. 3 Q These are not what? I'm sorry. 4 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Did he say 5 anything other than these are not, to the 6 best of your recollection? 7 THE WITNESS: I don't remember how 8 specific he got. Maybe I misunderstood. I'm 9 just telling you what I got from the 10 conversation. 11 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 12 Q Are you familiar with the various 13 steps in the vetting process? 14 A No, not enough to speak to it 15 knowledgeably. Background, that kind of 16 thing. 17 Q You would be unaware then if there 18 was some earlier step in the vetting process 19 that was somehow holding up the completion of 20 later steps in the vetting process? 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Leading, 22 lacks foundation, asked and answered. 544 1 THE WITNESS: No. I say I am aware 2 of that very same scenario happening 3 repeatedly. It was discussed at length. 4 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 5 Q Is it also within the realm of 6 possibility that these stacks of files that 7 you were talking about political 8 appointments, as you understood the term, 9 might have been files of, say, senior 10 executive service personnel? 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Lacks 12 foundation. 13 THE WITNESS: I don't know. I 14 don't know. Can I add that I think that my 15 personal knowledge of the vetting process was 16 only what I had been exposed to on a 17 permanent level, and so the people for 18 whom -- I think that the only people that I 19 was exposed to, the files or the nature of 20 the vetting process on a personal level was 21 maybe six or seven very senior high profile 22 nominees. 545 1 So, whether he was doing SES -- oh, 2 and several judges. If he and his staff were 3 vetting SES folks or, you know, the Assistant 4 Secretary level, they very well could have 5 been, and I would not have been exposed to 6 that information. 7 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Is this a perfect 8 place to break? 9 MR. GILLIGAN: Yes, rather than 10 starting something new. I'll let it go. 11 Just a moment, though. Let me confer with 12 Mr. Gaffney. 13 Off the record for just a moment. 14 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record 15 at 3:55 p.m. 16 (Recess) 17 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On the record at 18 3:56 p.m. 19 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 20 Q Just a couple of questions 21 regarding the Rose billing records have 22 occurred to me again, Ms. Tripp. 546 1 Pardon me if I've already asked you 2 this. Do you have any recollection as to how 3 thick these billing records were? 4 A I remember folded. 5 Q Folded, okay. 6 A He's going to give me this again. 7 Q Take the ruler. 8 A I don't think measurably thick. I 9 didn't have that impression that these were, 10 in fact, what I thought they were. I had an 11 impression of folded, like folded. 12 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Like computer 13 paper folded? 14 THE WITNESS: Almost like a 15 newspaper folded. 16 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 17 Q Or a computer printout folded over? 18 A Something folded. I don't think it 19 was Xerox paper, though. 20 Q If you unfolded it, would you have 21 any notion of how thick it was unfolded? 22 A No. 547 1 Q Not even with the assistance of 2 our -- 3 A I don't think so. I really didn't, 4 again, think a lot about it at the time. 5 Q Can you recall with any specificity 6 what it was that made you associate these 7 documents with Mrs. Clinton? 8 A Mrs. Clinton. Yeah -- 9 MR. ZACCAGNINI: One second. 10 (Counsel conferred with witness) 11 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the 12 conference of the witness and her counsel 13 with the question pending. 14 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Actually, I'm just 15 helping clarify her response and maybe 16 provide you more information, but your 17 objection is noted. 18 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection is. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: As long as we are 20 objecting, Mr. Gaffney, I just want to note 21 for the record that you've been passing notes 22 to Mr. Gilligan about this issue. 548 1 MR. GAFFNEY: Is that an objection, 2 Mr. Klayman? 3 MR. KLAYMAN: No, just note it for 4 the record. 5 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 6 Q Go ahead. 7 MR. ZACCAGNINI: The question was 8 again, I'm sorry? 9 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 10 Q What was it about these documents 11 that you associated them with Mrs. Clinton? 12 A I don't know now if the initials, 13 or whether it was something having to do with 14 the actual Rose law firm that separated it 15 from Vince or Bill Kennedy, but something 16 made me think Mrs. Clinton and Vince Foster 17 that I saw, and I don't know what that was. 18 I don't know if it was her initials or some 19 notation; I don't know. It was quick. 20 Q You really don't know what that 21 notation was at this point? 22 A No, no. The graphic that I saw 549 1 didn't necessarily mirror what I saw. It 2 looked very like it, and I had never seen, to 3 this day, I have never seen anything that 4 looks so much like it. 5 Q That graphic being the graphic on 6 the television? 7 A Right. 8 Q Sometime later. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Another note from 10 Mr. Gaffney. 11 MR. GAFFNEY: Is that an objection, 12 Mr. Klayman? 13 MR. KLAYMAN: I just wanted to be 14 able to show the close cooperation between 15 counsel for Mrs. Clinton and the Justice 16 Department. 17 MR. GILLIGAN: Co-defendants 18 assisting one another, now that is a -- 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Now, they are 20 actually meeting. They are conferring. 21 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 22 Q Other than the people you say you 550 1 mentioned this to earlier in the day, 2 Ms. Tripp, can you recollect anyone else that 3 you ever mentioned this event to, other than 4 to counsel? 5 A I was never asked in a legal 6 proceeding about this, under oath or in any 7 other way, if that's your question. 8 Q Aside from not being asked, did you 9 ever tell anyone else? 10 A I don't remember the timing, so I'm 11 not sure. It's quite possible I could have 12 mentioned it to someone else, and it would 13 depend on the timing of when I first made the 14 connection on TV and in the paper, I believe. 15 That could have very well been during the 16 time that I was speaking to Lucy Ann 17 Goldberg, but I'm not just sure of the time 18 frame. 19 Q Are you saying you may or may not 20 have told this to Ms. Goldberg? 21 A Correct. 22 Q Assuming it was January of '96, 551 1 would you have told this to Ms. Goldberg; do 2 you think? 3 A I have to think of when we cut off 4 communication. Can I confer, because I don't 5 know when the book came out? 6 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Just based upon 7 your recollection, that's the best way to do 8 it. 9 THE WITNESS: I can't; I just can't 10 remember at this point. 11 MR. GILLIGAN: That's it for the -- 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me just ask 13 Ms. Tripp -- 14 MR. GILLIGAN: Wait a minute, no. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: It's not a question. 16 It was pending, and I asked you if you could 17 remember the name of the Washington Post 18 editor that was in contact? 19 THE WITNESS: I haven't had two 20 seconds to even think about it. I'll sit 21 home tonight and see what I can do. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. 552 1 MS. WEISMANN: 10:00 on the 13th? 2 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Off the record. 3 (Discussion off the record) 4 (Whereupon, at 4:02 p.m., the 5 deposition of LINDA R. TRIPP was 6 continued.) 7 * * * * * 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 ?? 554 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA 2 ---------------------------x 3 CARA LESLIE ALEXANDER : et al., : 4 : Plaintiffs, : 5 : v. : Civil No. 96-2163 (RCL) 6 : FEDERAL BUREAU OF : 7 INVESTIGATION et al., : : 8 Defendants. : Volume 3 ---------------------------x 9 Washington, D.C. 10 Wednesday, January 13, 1999 11 12 Continued deposition of 13 LINDA R. TRIPP 14 a witness, recalled for examination by 15 counsel for Defendants, pursuant to notice 16 and agreement of counsel, continuing at 17 approximately 1:34 p.m., at the law offices 18 of Judicial Watch, 501 School Street 19 Southwest, Washington, D.C., before Monica A. 20 Voorhees, notary public in and for the 21 District of Columbia, when were present on 22 behalf of the respective parties: 555 1 APPEARANCES: 2 On behalf of Plaintiffs: 3 LARRY KLAYMAN, ESQUIRE TOM FITTON, ESQUIRE 4 Judicial Watch 501 School Street Southwest, Suite 725 5 Washington, D.C. 20024 (202) 646-5172 6 7 On behalf of Defendants Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) and the Executive 8 Office of the President (EOP): 9 ELIZABETH J. SHAPIRO, ESQUIRE JAMES J. GILLIGAN, ESQUIRE 10 ANNE L. WEISMANN, ESQUIRE Federal Programs Branch 11 Civil Division United States Department of Justice 12 901 E Street Northwest, Room 988 Washington, D.C. 20530 13 (202) 514-5302 14 On behalf of Defendant Federal Bureau of 15 Investigation: 16 JON D. PIFER, ESQUIRE Office of General Counsel 17 Federal Bureau of Investigation 935 Pennsylvania Avenue Northwest 18 Washington, D.C. 20535 (202) 324-9665 19 20 21 22 556 1 APPEARANCES (CONT'D): 2 On behalf of Defendant Hillary Rodham Clinton: 3 PAUL B. GAFFNEY, ESQUIRE MARCIE ZIEGLER, ESQUIRE 4 Williams & Connolly 725 Twelfth Street Northwest 5 Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 434-5000 6 7 On behalf of The White House: 8 MICHELLE M. PETERSON, ESQUIRE Associate Counsel to the President 9 The White House Washington, D.C. 20500 10 (202) 456-7804 11 On behalf of Defendant Nussbaum: 12 ROBERT B. MAZUR, ESQUIRE 13 Wachtell Lipton Rosen & Katz 51 West 52nd Street 14 New York, New York 10019-6618 (212) 403-1000 15 16 On behalf of the Office of the Independent Counsel: 17 JOSEPH M. DITKOFF, ESQUIRE 18 RICHARD C. KILLOUGH, ESQUIRE Office of Independent Counsel 19 1001 Pennsylvania Avenue Northwest, Suite 490 North 20 Washington, D.C. 20004 (202) 514-8688 21 22 557 1 APPEARANCES (CONT'D): 2 On behalf of Deponent: 3 ANTHONY ZACCAGNINI, ESQUIRE ANTHONY LARDIERI, ESQUIRE 4 Semmes Bowen & Semmes 250 West Pratt Street 5 Baltimore, Maryland 21201 (410) 385-3935 6 7 8 * * * * * 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 558 1 C O N T E N T S 2 EXAMINATION BY: PAGE 3 Counsel for Defendant FBI and EOP 559 4 Counsel for Defendant Hillary Rodham 621 Clinton 5 Counsel for Defendant Nussbaum 751 6 Counsel for Plaintiffs 758 7 8 TRIPP DEPOSITION EXHIBITS: 9 No. 10 - Senate Housing Committee Meeting, 629 Excerpt 10 No. 11 - Goldberg Transcript, Tape 001 693 11 No. 12 - Goldberg Transcript, Tape 002 720 12 No. 13 - Transcript, Meet The Press 727 13 No. 14 - Page 4-5 of Exhibit 13 729 14 No. 15 - Report 302 733 15 No. 16 - Transcript, Office of the 741 16 Independent Counsel 17 No. 17 - Deposition of William Kennedy 777 18 19 20 * * * * * 21 22 559 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 Whereupon, 3 LINDA R. TRIPP 4 was recalled as a witness and, having been 5 previously duly sworn, was examined and 6 testified further as follows: 7 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR DEFENDANT 8 FBI and EOP 9 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 10 Q Good afternoon, Ms. Tripp. You 11 understand, I take it, that you're still 12 under oath? 13 A Good afternoon. Yes, I do. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Before we do that, 15 can we see if there's anybody at this 16 deposition who wasn't at the first two 17 sessions. 18 MR. KILLOUGH: Rick Killough from 19 the Office of Independent Counsel. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm sorry, the name? 21 MR. KILLOUGH: Rick Killough. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: How's that spelled? 560 1 MR. KILLOUGH: K-i-l-l-o-u-g-h. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Do you have a title? 3 MR. KILLOUGH: Assistant 4 Independent Counsel. 5 MR. GILLIGAN: Okay. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: I take it Ms. Paxton, 7 she was at the first session on 8 December 14th. 9 MR. GILLIGAN: Was not at the 10 second session. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: But was not at the 12 second. That's the only other change. 13 MR. GILLIGAN: As far as I know. 14 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 15 Q Ms. Tripp, before we got started 16 here about 1:30, you were having lunch in 17 Mr. Klayman's conference room; is that 18 correct? 19 A Correct. 20 Q Was Mr. Klayman in the conference 21 room, as well? 22 A He was. 561 1 Q Were you having any sort of 2 discussion with Mr. Klayman? 3 A He asked me questions and I 4 answered. 5 Q What questions did he ask you? 6 A Let me see if I can remember all of 7 them. He asked me if I had looked at the, 8 what were represented to me as being the Rose 9 law firm billing records. I said I had. 10 He asked if that refreshed my 11 memory; I said it looked like what I had seen 12 in the safe. He asked me about Betsy Pond 13 and if I believed that she would testify 14 truthfully if deposed. I said no, I didn't, 15 based on representations Betsy had made to me 16 when she assisted me in obtaining counsel 17 in 1994 -- 199 -- let me think. 1994. 18 He asked me some other questions, 19 as well. I can't remember what they were, 20 I'm sorry. 21 Q Do you recall any other information 22 you gave to Mr. Klayman? 562 1 A There were other questions I 2 answered, yes. They are just not coming to 3 me. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll be happy to 5 volunteer it, if you'd like. 6 MR. GILLIGAN: Please do. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: I asked you about The 8 Washington Post, if you remembered the name 9 of the editor or editors you had identified 10 earlier as having given heads up to the White 11 House. 12 THE WITNESS: Right. Shall I 13 just -- from there tell you what I told him 14 in response to that question? 15 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 16 Q Sure. 17 A I told him I had no independent 18 recollection of names. I remember there 19 being two individuals, both of whom were men, 20 and that when he suggested the name Downing, 21 it rang a bell simply because I recall during 22 that time frame hearing the name Downing from 563 1 Bruce Lindsay in conversations in our office, 2 in the Office of General Counsel, and not 3 being familiar with that name from The 4 Washington Post, but hearing it in 5 conjunction with The Washington Post and 6 actually thinking in terms of a television 7 personality, which is why it rings a bell. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me stop there, 9 did I mention -- 10 MR. GILLIGAN: Mr. Klayman -- 11 MR. KLAYMAN: You asked me to help. 12 THE WITNESS: I'm not done. 13 MR. GILLIGAN: I didn't ask you to 14 interrupt the witness during her testimony, 15 Mr. Klayman. 16 THE WITNESS: May I finish? 17 MR. GILLIGAN: Please. 18 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Why don't we just 19 let her answer the question. 20 MR. GILLIGAN: That's my goal. 21 THE WITNESS: During that time he 22 asked me if the name Bill Hamilton, husband 564 1 of Jane Mayer, rang a bell, and I told him it 2 did not. I wouldn't preclude it from being 3 true at that time because there was another 4 name that I heard routinely associated with 5 The Washington Post heads up to Bruce 6 Lindsay, but I can't testify that that was 7 the name. 8 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 9 Q Did you tell Mr. Klayman what these 10 representations were that Ms. Pond made to 11 you? 12 A I don't believe so. I don't think 13 we got into detail about that. I'd be happy 14 to do so, if you'd like me to. 15 Q I'll stick that one in my back 16 pocket for the moment. 17 A Okay. 18 Q Let's talk, instead, about just 19 briefly some more about stacks of files in 20 Mr. Kennedy's office. 21 At any given time, how many of 22 these stacks did you see in Mr. Kennedy's 565 1 office? 2 A Look, I'm trying to be completely 3 honest and forthright and forthcoming with 4 you, but I'm telling you that it's been six 5 years. I can only give you my impression. 6 My impression was that the files 7 didn't seem to change over time in terms of 8 the size of the stacks. There seemed to be 9 stacks both on the floor and on a table or 10 two. 11 Q Were there 10 stacks or more? 12 A I've testified before that 13 quantifying amounts is difficult for me. I 14 will tell you that it seemed overwhelming, it 15 seemed an overwhelming number of files. 16 Q Other than Ms. Pond, who we'll come 17 to in a little bit, who else in the White 18 House did you ever discuss the many stacks of 19 files in Mr. Kennedy's office with? 20 A With Debra Gorham. 21 Q Anyone else? 22 A Bill Kennedy. 566 1 Q As you've testified to? 2 A Yes. 3 Q How about outside the White House? 4 Did you ever mention them to anybody outside 5 the White House? 6 A I believe I've testified that I 7 discussed those with Tony Snow and may have 8 discussed this with Lucianne Goldberg. In 9 fact, I'm quite certain I did, in 1996. 10 Q Can you tell me about your 11 conversation with Ms. Gorham on this subject? 12 A Again, I don't think it was 13 significant. It was during the time that Deb 14 Gorham was reassigned to Bill Kennedy, was 15 sitting outside and was entering data into 16 the computer. 17 Now she did not identify those 18 files as FBI files for me, but we did discuss 19 the stacks of files and she was entering data 20 in to the computer where she sat in front of 21 Bill Kennedy's office. 22 Q So far as the stacks of files in 567 1 Mr. Kennedy's office were concerned, were 2 there any markings on these files to suggest 3 to you that they were FBI files? 4 A Again, in terms of on the outside 5 of files, I saw nothing. 6 Q Did you ever see the contents of 7 any of these files? 8 A The only thing I recall seeing are 9 names in some fashion on the files. 10 Q On the file jackets? 11 A Yeah, and I have no independent 12 recollection today as to whether any of them 13 were face up or not. I believe I saw a 14 handful on his desk open that looked similar, 15 but, no, the contents at that time I would 16 not have seen. 17 Q Did anyone ever tell you what they 18 supposedly contained? 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Asked and answered. 20 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 21 Q You may answer. 22 A I'm sorry, at what point? 568 1 Q Ever. 2 A Well, only the time that I spoke 3 with Betsy Pond. 4 Q Now on the occasions when you 5 observed names on the files, were these 6 occasions when you were in Mr. Kennedy's 7 personal office having a conversation with 8 Mr. Kennedy? 9 A I don't believe I was ever in 10 Mr. Kennedy's office when I was not having a 11 conversation with Mr. Kennedy. So -- 12 Q So the answer is yes? 13 A I believe it would be yes. You're 14 asking me to -- again, recall something that 15 was six years ago. I can tell you that I 16 don't recall being in his office without him. 17 Q Are these conversations where you 18 would be standing up shooting the breeze with 19 him, do you recall being seated anywhere? 20 A I think it would depend. There 21 were several times that I just chatted with 22 Bill and then there were other times when I 569 1 actually went to see him on a mission, on 2 a -- so, I think it would depend on whether I 3 was seated or not on the occasion. 4 If I were there to say hello for 5 two seconds, I probably wouldn't have been 6 seated. 7 Q You say the files were about hip 8 high, the stacks, that is to say? 9 A Some of them were, yes, those that 10 were on the floor. 11 Q Do I understand correctly then that 12 while you were having conversation with 13 Mr. Kennedy, you were somehow able to 14 nevertheless look down at the floor in the 15 middle of the conversation and somehow see 16 the names on the file? 17 A I don't know how to make you 18 understand this. The entire room was stacks 19 of files, on the tables, on the floor, on a 20 table behind his desk, on a table on the side 21 of his desk, all around the perimeter of the 22 room. Files were everywhere, and they were, 570 1 I'm not sure where you would have stood or 2 have been seated where you would not have 3 seen stacks of files. 4 Q Yes, but in terms of seeing the 5 names on a file folder tab at the top of one 6 of the stacks. 7 A Uh-huh, right. 8 Q Were you while you were having a 9 conversation with Mr. Kennedy able to stare 10 down at the top of a stack and see the name? 11 A I don't know, I don't know, I can't 12 tell you today how I saw names. I'm not sure 13 that I ever just saw only one file on one 14 stack. I know that that's my impression now 15 in retrospect, but I'm not sure that's true. 16 It might have been three, it might have been 17 three. I saw names. 18 Q Now you left the White House 19 Counsel's Office in approximately May 20 of 1994; is that correct? 21 A Correct. 22 Q Did you have occasion to be in 571 1 Mr. Kennedy's office after your service in 2 Counsel's Office had ended? 3 A Yes. 4 Q What occasion was that? 5 A Let me correct that, not 6 necessarily Mr. Kennedy's office, but that 7 suite. 8 Q Well, let me redirect your 9 attention then to Mr. Kennedy's personal 10 office. 11 A Okay, I don't recall being there 12 after. I may have. I had discussions which 13 involved correspondence between my then 14 attorney and Joel Klein and Neil Eggleston 15 and I may well have spoken to Bill Kennedy 16 about that subject during that time frame. 17 Q How long after your service in the 18 Counsel's Office had ended did that occur? 19 A Well, I was still carried on paper 20 in the Counsel's Office until I left. I was 21 still a Counsel's Office assignee, I guess 22 you would say. 572 1 Q Well, speaking de facto, if not 2 officially? 3 A Again, I can't tell you the time 4 frame, except it would have been between May 5 and August. 6 Q You made reference to seeing a file 7 in Mr. Kennedy's office with Congressman or 8 what you believed to be Congressman's 9 Clinger's name on it? 10 A I think I said the name Clinger. 11 Q The name Clinger, that's fine. Let 12 me get to the nub of it. Can you describe 13 this file with any greater specificity than 14 you've been able to describe other files that 15 we've been talking about during the course of 16 the deposition? 17 A In terms of what it looked like? 18 Q Yes. 19 A No. 20 Q Did you ever see the contents of 21 this file? 22 A No. 573 1 Q Did anyone ever tell you what was 2 in it? 3 A No. 4 Q Did anyone ever tell you that it 5 was his FBI file? 6 A No. 7 Q Did it say that it was an FBI file 8 on the outside? 9 A It did not. 10 Q Let's talk about your conversations 11 with Ms. Pond. 12 I believe you said the first 13 conversation, where she indicated that the 14 files stacked on Mr. Kennedy's office floor 15 were FBI files, occurred after she had been 16 transferred to the OEOB, correct? 17 A Well, yes, because it was when she 18 was assigned to Bill Kennedy. 19 Q Her transfer you testified was 20 sometime between December of 1993 and 21 January 1994, correct? 22 A Well, I've tried to remember more 574 1 specifically. I know that Betsy was still in 2 the West Wing Counsel's Office when Joel 3 Klein arrived and that was, to the best of my 4 recollection, December of '93. 5 In January of '94, with the 6 escalation of what was Whitewater coverage in 7 the media, during a very intense period, the 8 situation with Betsy also escalated. 9 So, I went away for a few days and 10 when I came back, the situation had been 11 resolved and she was either en route or had 12 moved to the old EOB, so I'm thinking it was 13 closer to the end of January. 14 Q On the occasion, then, where you 15 and Ms. Pond discussed FBI files, did you 16 tell me why were you there in the OEOB suite 17 on that occasion? 18 A I can't tell you. 19 Q Was it routine business or was it 20 something out of the ordinary that you can 21 recall? 22 A I don't remember at this point. 575 1 Q Was it commonplace when you came to 2 the OEOB for you and Ms. Pond to chat, to 3 converse? 4 A There was an element of strain 5 between us at that point. We weren't 6 particularly close at that point, but it 7 wasn't uncommon for us to continue to speak, 8 certainly, and she still worked for my boss, 9 so there was often a need to talk. 10 Then also I think an attempt on my 11 part, at least, and I think on Betsy's, to 12 try to get beyond the issue that had brought 13 her across to the old EOB to begin with. 14 Q Would you talk shop, as they say, 15 talk about the job, job-related subjects in 16 general? 17 A I really, I don't remember now 18 today what Betsy and I talked about 19 routinely. There was dissatisfaction on 20 Betsy's part, what I remember today, in her 21 move, number one, and in the types of 22 assignments she was being given, number two. 576 1 She didn't feel it reflected the promotion 2 her salary increase should have reflected 3 when she moved. 4 Q At the time you and Ms. Pond had 5 the conversation about the stacks of files in 6 Mr. Kennedy's office, do you recall who else 7 was present in the office at that time? 8 A I have no distinct recollection of 9 who was present. I know there were usually 10 people around, though. Betsy did not have a 11 private area. 12 Q Right. But you can't recall 13 specifically anybody who was there at the 14 time? 15 A No. No. At the time, I mean at 16 the time that all this was becoming of -- a 17 piece to me, the significance really wasn't, 18 wasn't glaringly obvious to me. It wasn't 19 transparent at that point. 20 I have since come to believe 21 otherwise. At the time I don't know that I 22 did. I began to be more cognizant, perhaps, 577 1 but I hadn't developed the same level of fear 2 that I developed later on. 3 Q You testified on December 14th when 4 Mr. Klayman asked you how did she identify 5 them as FBI files, you responded she said 6 those are FBI files. I asked the question. 7 Can you recall for me as best you 8 can exactly what question it is you asked of 9 Ms. Pond? 10 MR. ZACCAGNINI: First, Ms. Tripp, 11 do you recall that testimony or would you 12 like to read it? 13 THE WITNESS: I recall it. I 14 think -- I think I'd like him to read it so 15 that I can respond accurately, but I think I 16 know what part this was. This had to do with 17 Betsy complaining, I believe. 18 MR. GILLIGAN: It's page 84, starting 19 at line 2. 20 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Thanks. 21 THE WITNESS: Right. 22 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 578 1 Q So you see where you said, I asked 2 the question. 3 A Yes. 4 Q Again, to the best of your 5 recollection, what precisely is the question 6 that you asked? 7 A I don't remember precisely what I 8 asked. I think I asked what are all these 9 stacks, what are all these things. They were 10 complaining completely on a daily basis that 11 the vetting was just not happening. It was 12 not happening with judges, it wasn't 13 happening with senior appointments. 14 Betsy was complaining about 15 inputting data. I believe on our second 16 conversation she referenced the inputting of 17 data and the fact that it was a lowly 18 clerical sort of tedious thing to do. 19 She treated it in a confidential 20 tone of voice as opposed to something open 21 and above board, but it wasn't, at the time 22 didn't strike me as one way or the other 579 1 covert or not. 2 I think it was mainly the numbers, 3 the shear numbers that would have made me 4 ask, and I figured Betsy would tell me. 5 Q You testified, at page 84, she said 6 those are FBI files. 7 Again I'm asking you, were those 8 her words, to the best of your recollection? 9 A She used the words FBI, the letters 10 FBI. Yes. 11 Q So she said FBI, did she say those 12 are FBI files? 13 A I don't -- I have testified that 14 that's what she said and that is certainly my 15 recollection of what she said. Was it 16 verbatim, no, she could have said them are 17 FBI files, I don't know, but. 18 Q Now you testified previously that 19 there were a variety of files in 20 Mr. Kennedy's office. 21 How do you know specifically 22 whether Ms. Pond knew which files you were 580 1 referring to? 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, assumes 3 facts not testified to. Leading. 4 MR. GILLIGAN: I understand your 5 objection. 6 THE WITNESS: Can you repeat, 7 please. 8 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 9 Q You testified at our previous 10 session on January 5th, I believe it was, 11 that there were different kinds of files in 12 Mr. Kennedy's office and I'm, what I'm asking 13 you is how do you know that Ms. Pond knew 14 which files you were referring to? 15 A Can you show me where -- where we 16 are talking about? 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Same objection, 18 assumes facts not testified to. 19 (Counsel conferred with witness) 20 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 21 Q Page 541. Do you have a copy? 22 MR. ZACCAGNINI: No. 581 1 THE WITNESS: This is not it? 2 MR. ZACCAGNINI: No, we stop 3 at 303. 4 MS. WEISMANN: Line 19. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: What page are we 6 talking about? 7 THE WITNESS: 541. Okay, I've read 8 that whole area. What was your question? 9 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 10 Q The question is if there were, as 11 you said, files other than the stacks of 12 files or a variety of files in Mr. Kennedy's 13 office, how do you know that Ms. Pond 14 understood which files you were referring to? 15 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'll object to the 16 question because I think it calls for the 17 witness to speculate as to Ms. Pond's state 18 of mind, but you can answer the question if 19 you have any information. 20 THE WITNESS: Well, when I asked 21 the question of Betsy, my recollection is 22 that I was referring to the stacks and stacks 582 1 of files, to which I've testified. 2 I think her response to me, what I 3 got at the time, what I continue to feel was 4 accurate now, was that we were speaking of 5 the same stacks. 6 If you're speaking of other files, 7 I mean was there other work on his desk or 8 the vetting files in particular, which he 9 gestured the other way, was not what I was 10 referring to when I asked the question, and I 11 understood from Betsy that she was referring 12 to the same stacks I was. They were hard to 13 miss. 14 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 15 Q But that's just your understanding 16 of the situation? 17 A Yes, absolutely. We didn't go in 18 and point to them. 19 Q Let us then move on to the second 20 conversation where she talked about 21 inputting. 22 A Well, she was inputting, yeah. 583 1 Q How long after the first 2 conversation did the second conversation 3 occur? 4 A Again, it was while she was in Bill 5 Kennedy's office, and I can only give it to 6 you in a series of months possibility. I 7 don't know. I don't remember. 8 Q Well, let's start with months, was 9 it months after the first conversation? 10 A No, I'm certain it wasn't that 11 long. If I'm assuming that Betsy moved over 12 in let's say the end of January, the 13 beginning of February of '94, I had left the 14 Counsel's Office by I believe the end of May 15 of '94. I think that this would have been 16 during the time that I was still working for 17 Bernie, so, or, excuse me, still working in 18 the same location where Bernie had been. 19 Q Would you say that the length of 20 time between the two conversations was a 21 matter of weeks, then? 22 A I just don't know. I didn't attach 584 1 all that much significance at that point. 2 Q I understand. Do you recall what 3 the occasion was for you to be in the OEOB 4 suite on that day? 5 A I don't. 6 Q You don't recall it being some sort 7 of particular errand or something out of the 8 ordinary that you would recall? 9 A No, I mean I recall that I had 10 several, two or three, and I believe it was 11 three separate and distinct meetings with 12 Bill Kennedy on business matters. 13 I also recall that I was there 14 relatively frequently on not office-related 15 business, or not even not office-related 16 business, but not on meeting agenda business. 17 It may well have been just to go 18 over to the Counsel's Office to discuss 19 something with Beth Nolan or to talk to their 20 head secretary over there about suspenses. I 21 mean it could have been a myriad, I just 22 don't know. 585 1 Q Now you mentioned during the 2 December 14th session something about you and 3 Ms. Pond taking cigarette breaks together, 4 was this a conversation that took place 5 during a cigarette break? 6 A No. 7 Q This conversation took place inside 8 the OEOB suite? 9 A I recall her actually -- I recall 10 there being a time when the conversation took 11 place, we were actually sitting there and she 12 was actually inputting. 13 I also recall a time when we were 14 sitting there and she made this sort of 15 movement with her hands to indicate she was 16 still inputting data. It was much along the 17 lines of a complaint a mantra about her 18 dissatisfaction about what she was doing. 19 Again, I didn't think it was all that big a 20 deal. 21 Q Now you testified then on 22 December 14th that when she was speaking of 586 1 this complaint, and doing the pecking motion 2 with her forefingers, that you asked does he, 3 meaning Mr. Kennedy, do a lot of mail and she 4 said no, no, no, no, it's not, it's the 5 files, and she pointed back. Do you recall? 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, why don't 7 you show her the testimony. 8 THE WITNESS: Actually, I do recall 9 that, though. 10 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 11 Q Thank you. Now, where was Ms. Pond 12 seated, excuse me, was she seated at her 13 desk, for that matter, during this 14 conversation? 15 A My recollection is that she was. 16 Q Now you testified earlier that as 17 you entered the main, through the main 18 doorway to the suite, her desk was on the 19 left? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Which way would she have been 22 facing when she was seated at her desk? 587 1 A Instead of, instead of facing 2 Mr. Kennedy's area and instead of facing the 3 opposite wall to that, my recollection is 4 that she was catty-cornered, facing both me 5 and her computer at the same time, if you can 6 envision that. 7 Q I'm not sure I can. 8 A You walk in the door. 9 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Would you like her 10 to draw a diagram? 11 THE WITNESS: I'm not very good at 12 artwork. Maybe I can just be more clear. 13 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 14 Q Let's say that that door there is 15 the main entrance to the office suite. 16 A I'm not -- this isn't going to 17 work. 18 Q That's not going to work, all 19 right, you try it. 20 A Let's say this is the door, I'm 21 coming in the door. This is something, I 22 don't know whether it was a credenza or a 588 1 little something, and then this was Betsy 2 (indicating). 3 Q Her desk? 4 A Her desk. Her computer. This was 5 a wall to the corridor, because I'm coming in 6 the door from the corridor. Bill Kennedy's 7 office would have been somewhere back here, 8 but close by. 9 I believe she was sitting facing me 10 and the computer, sort of like this, and 11 that's probably about as accurate as I can 12 get (indicating). 13 Q So, do I understand correctly then 14 from where she was seated, Mr. Kennedy's 15 office would have been to the left and behind 16 her? 17 A To the left. Sort of, yeah. 18 Certainly to the back. Yeah, depending, from 19 her perspective, yeah. I don't know what arm 20 she used, if that's your next question. I 21 have no idea. 22 Q Well, let me just, I'm not 589 1 interested in which arm. 2 A Oh, good. 3 Q But when you say she pointed back, 4 can you do the gesture that you meant to 5 indicate -- 6 A I'm real afraid to do that right at 7 this moment. I'm not seated where she was 8 seated and I think it's putting too much 9 emphasis on a memory that's clear to me in 10 terms of my impression, but which I wouldn't 11 want to reenact for fear you'll attack me. 12 I knew what she meant. She was 13 pointing to Mr. Kennedy's office. We had 14 spoken about those files. She had referred 15 to them as FBI files before. I don't think 16 either one of us misunderstood the other. 17 Q But, so she pointed towards 18 Mr. Kennedy's office; is that the bottom line 19 for you? 20 A That's what I understood her to be 21 gesturing toward, yes. 22 Q She said the files, correct? 590 1 A That's my recollection. 2 Q You understood her to mean FBI 3 files? 4 A I understood her to mean the same 5 files we had spoken of earlier on another 6 conversation where we had had a pretty 7 lengthy discussion about that, so. 8 Q When you say a lengthy 9 conversation, you're referring to the first 10 conversation? 11 A Well, the first conversation and on 12 cigarette breaks when she had, I think maybe 13 I haven't been clear, she bemoaned her status 14 and her current area of responsibility, 15 frequently, and so I remember her saying she 16 felt like a data entry clerk. 17 Q But are you saying that the first 18 conversation you had about FBI files was a 19 lengthy one? 20 A I can't remember how lengthy each 21 conversation was, except that we discussed 22 what she was doing in terms of entering data 591 1 into the computer at length and frequently. 2 Q Well, when she said the files, did 3 you ask her a question, something to the 4 effect, do you mean the FBI files? 5 A No. 6 Q So other than her pointing back, is 7 it fair to say that you have no indication of 8 which files she meant, other than she pointed 9 in the direction of Mr. Kennedy's office? 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, misstates 11 prior testimony, leading. 12 THE WITNESS: Can I answer? 13 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Sure. 14 THE WITNESS: I have to say that my 15 understanding was that we were talking about 16 the same files, so. 17 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 18 Q But other than Ms. Pond pointing in 19 the direction of Mr. Kennedy's office, you 20 have no knowledge what her understanding was, 21 do you? 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, misstates 592 1 prior testimony, leading. 2 THE WITNESS: I can only base it on 3 our other conversations. It's like anything 4 else, you, if you're asking me was that my 5 assumption based on what she said at that 6 time, it's like any other conversation, yes. 7 Certainly I wasn't in her head. 8 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 9 Q Now, when Ms. Pond, during this 10 second conversation when she pointed at 11 Mr. Kennedy's office, did you actually saw 12 she her inputting data during this 13 conversation? 14 A Well, I saw her entering something 15 in to the computer. But let me be clear, 16 when I say second conversation, I mean second 17 conversation that I believe made direct 18 reference to FBI files. 19 There were other conversations that 20 we had, separate and apart from those, which 21 I'm not enumerating at this point that talked 22 about the data entry. 593 1 Q I understand. 2 A You do, okay. 3 Q I do. Again, coming back and 4 calling it the second conversation, did you 5 actually see her while you were having this 6 conversation inputting data in to the 7 computer? 8 A That's my recollection. 9 Q That's your recollection. You say 10 at the same time there were stacks of these 11 files that had the same commonality that 12 you've spoken of on her desk? 13 A She had files that looked like 14 those of the stacks in her area and was 15 entering data. I did not see what she was 16 using. 17 Q You didn't see what she was 18 inputting from? 19 A No, I didn't, I didn't really even 20 pay attention. She was doing it. 21 Q As far as the stacks that were on 22 her desk that day, did you ever see the 594 1 contents of any of those files? 2 A I don't know. I don't think I -- 3 if I did, it didn't make an impression. 4 Q No one ever told you what was 5 contained in those files? 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading, 7 asked and answered. 8 THE WITNESS: Well, only from what 9 she told me before. 10 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 11 Q Meaning her earlier reference to 12 FBI files? 13 A Yes. 14 Q But in terms of actually picking up 15 one of those files and being able to look at 16 it or somebody describing to you in detail 17 the contents of any of those files that were 18 on her desk that day, did anybody ever do 19 that? 20 A No, uh-uh. 21 Q You also mentioned on December 14th 22 a conversation with Ms. Gorham in the same 595 1 OEOB suite, as I recollect, where she also 2 complained about inputting data in to a 3 database; do you recall that testimony? 4 A Yes, I do. 5 Q Did Ms. Gorham identify the 6 database? 7 A No. 8 Q Did she ever describe it in any way 9 to you? 10 A The only thing I recall Debra 11 saying to me about the database at all was 12 that it was not one that we had in the West 13 Wing because I was under the impression at 14 that time that she was working on the 15 computer that had been hers when she was 16 Vince Foster's assistant in the West Wing. 17 Q Did you ever see the database she 18 was typing into, did you ever see her 19 actually typing? 20 A I saw the screen, yeah. 21 Q The one you referred to as having 22 columns? 596 1 A Some columns, and some narrative. 2 Q Other than recollecting there being 3 columns and some narrative, is there anything 4 more you can say about the nature of what you 5 saw on the screen? 6 A Well, I hadn't seen it anywhere 7 else. 8 Q Anything else? 9 A Anything else? 10 Q That you can recollect about what 11 it was? 12 A I don't believe so. I seem to 13 remember a color. I don't know the 14 significance of that or not. 15 Q Do you remember what color it was? 16 A No, sorry. 17 Q If I may, just swing back 18 momentarily to something we talked about at 19 the outset, your statement about 20 representations that Ms. Pond made to you in 21 connection with obtaining Counsel; is that 22 what it was? 597 1 A I think I spoke about that when you 2 asked me about Mr. Klayman's questions to me 3 in the lunchroom. 4 Q Right. That's what I'm referring 5 to. What were the representations that 6 Ms. Pond made to you? 7 A Oh, several. Some had to do with 8 activities in the aftermath of Vince Foster's 9 death the following day, representations she 10 made to me as to how she would answer 11 questions if asked by law enforcement, and 12 over time how she would answer questions if 13 deposed on that same subject, which were 14 untruthful, which were untruthful 15 representations at that point. 16 When we were all told that we 17 should probably retain Counsel, Betsy was 18 active in assisting several of us retain 19 Counsel and made representations during that 20 time about how it would be in our best 21 interest to find an Administration friendly 22 attorney to ensure that information that we 598 1 didn't want out there in the public domain 2 was protected. 3 Things of that nature. We had many 4 such conversations. 5 Q What were the answers about 6 Mr. Foster's death that you believe would 7 have been untruthful? 8 A Having to do with Betsy's movements 9 the following morning, the morning we came in 10 to the office. 11 Q Can you be more specific than that? 12 A Sure. 13 Q Please. 14 A The morning that we came in to the 15 office following the discovery of 16 Mr. Foster's body, Betsy had gone in to 17 Mr. Foster's office before anyone got there 18 and searched the office for a note. 19 When I got there in the later, 20 around 8 or so in the morning, Betsy was on 21 the phone with Mr. Nussbaum who I guess had 22 instructed her in no uncertain terms not to 599 1 go in to Mr. Foster's office and to ensure 2 that no one else went in to Mr. Foster's 3 office. 4 So when I came in, she immediately 5 sort of screamed don't go in his office, 6 don't go in his office, I have Bernie on the 7 phone. 8 When she hung up, she told me that 9 she had planned to tell Bernie and anyone 10 else that she went in there to straighten up, 11 but that actually she had gone in to look for 12 a note and had gone through his papers. 13 Q Ms. Pond told you that she had gone 14 in to Mr. Foster's office with the purpose of 15 searching for a note? 16 A For a suicide note. 17 Q For a suicide note? 18 A That's right. 19 Q Did she tell you why she had done 20 that? 21 A Did she tell me why. No, I don't 22 think she did. 600 1 Q Did she tell you why, if asked, she 2 would say that she had not been in his 3 office? 4 A The concern was that Mr. Nussbaum 5 had told her on the phone that under no 6 circumstances was anyone to enter the area of 7 Mr. Foster's desk in his office. 8 Q Mr. Nussbaum was her boss? 9 A Yes. 10 Q You then said that Ms. Pond told 11 you that it would be in your best interests 12 to get a "administration friendly attorney" 13 to represent you in connection with the 14 investigation of Mr. Foster's suicide; is 15 that correct? 16 A In words with that meaning, yes. 17 Q Why does that representation lead 18 you to believe that Ms. Pond would testify 19 untruthfully? 20 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection, 21 compound question. I'm not sure that that's 22 the reason why, but maybe a predicate 601 1 question would be, and I would only suggest 2 this to you, is the fact that Ms. Pond 3 suggested that she obtain an administration 4 friendly attorney part of her belief why she 5 thinks Ms. Pond would testify untruthfully. 6 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 7 Q How does that contribute to your 8 belief that Ms. Pond would testify 9 untruthfully? 10 A Well, I mean there were various 11 conversations we had about this subject and 12 other subjects and in which Betsy made it 13 very clear to me that she had a history with 14 Mrs. Clinton, a history with Mr. Nussbaum, 15 and that she was a loyal team player. 16 My sense and, in fact, in 17 conversations, I gleaned from Betsy that her 18 definition of a loyal team player and mine 19 were completely different. Her definition of 20 a loyal team player meant that you took steps 21 to ensure that only that information that the 22 Administration would want out got out, and I 602 1 didn't agree with that and I don't to this 2 day. 3 Q Did she ever say that those steps 4 included not testifying truthfully under 5 oath? 6 A She intimated, yes, those very 7 words and also said that she would take steps 8 not to have to testify, whether it was -- 9 there were various scenarios she spoke of and 10 she also spoke of having worked for 19 or so 11 years, I'm not sure how many, in law firms 12 and that she knew how to do that. 13 Q Can you describe for me in any 14 specificity any conversation you ever had 15 with Ms. Pond where she indicated that she 16 would not testify truthfully under oath? 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, asked and 18 answered. 19 THE WITNESS: She said that more 20 than once. 21 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 22 Q Tell me about any case where she 603 1 said that? 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Asked and answered. 3 THE WITNESS: A specific? 4 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 5 Q Yes. 6 A I mean I'm telling you that my 7 conversations with Betsy about this subject 8 always led me to believe that that's what I 9 was expected to do, as well. 10 Q I'm just asking for you to tell me 11 what it is she said that would lead you to 12 believe any of this, other than the fact that 13 you concluded this? 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, compound 15 question, asked and answered. 16 THE WITNESS: Well, I didn't 17 conclude it out of whole cloth. 18 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 19 Q I'm trying to find out what the 20 foundation is for your belief, that's all. 21 A Conversations with Betsy Pond. 22 Q Can you describe them, any one of 604 1 them in any specificity? 2 A Verbatim, no, I can't. I can tell 3 you that we had these conversations, it was 4 unsettling to me. It was disturbing to me. 5 Frankly, I -- there were times when 6 Deb Gorham was a participant in these 7 conversations where I got the sense that 8 without her saying so, I got the sense that 9 Deb's leaning, if she had one, was more 10 towards Betsy's school of thought than mine. 11 Q What did Ms. Gorham say that would 12 lead you to believe that? 13 A I can't today, years later, give 14 you verbatim conversations. I can only tell 15 you that it was alarming to me. I had talked 16 about getting a legal defense attorney, I 17 forget what they are called now, and that was 18 disturbing to Betsy and to Bernie, but 19 specifically Betsy was the one who found the 20 Paul Hastings attorney for me. 21 It was certainly, it was certainly 22 something that was made clear to me. This 605 1 wasn't something that I imagined. 2 Q Other than Ms. Gorham, were there 3 any other people you can name who 4 participated or overheard these conversations 5 with Ms. Pond? 6 A Overheard? 7 Q Yes. 8 A I don't think this is the kind of 9 conversation you would have in a busy room 10 with people overhearing. 11 Q Well, you said Ms. Gorham was privy 12 to one of these conversations? 13 A Right, she was. More than one, 14 actually. 15 Q More than one, okay. Who else, if 16 you can remember? 17 A I don't think anyone else. 18 Q Again, I just want to be clear, can 19 you remember any specific words that Ms. Pond 20 used which led you to believe that she was 21 going to testify untruthfully or that you 22 were expected to testify untruthfully? 606 1 A Specific words, no. I just can't. 2 I remember conversations, snippets of 3 conversations. As you asked me just now, I 4 remember part of a conversation about the 5 lawyers, the associates accompanying us to 6 FBI or Park Police interrogations and her 7 comment to me that we should say that that 8 was our idea, that we wanted the Office of 9 General Counsel to represent us in these 10 interviews. 11 I said that's not true. I didn't 12 ask for them. In fact, I still don't 13 understand today how a White House lawyer 14 representing the institution of the President 15 can represent me as a staff member in any 16 legal sense, so. 17 Q Any other snippets that you can 18 recall? 19 A I'm sure there could be. At the 20 top of -- I'd have to go back and think about 21 this. This is six years old, almost. It's 22 hard for me to get to. 607 1 My sense was clear from Betsy and 2 less so from Deb. 3 Q Just a couple more things, then, 4 Ms. Tripp. 5 You testified on December 14th that 6 on an occasion when you were in 7 Mr. Livingstone's office, the Office of 8 Personnel Security, that you saw some of the 9 files that shared the commonality with the 10 stacks in Mr. Kennedy's office, albeit far 11 fewer in number. 12 Can you give me any estimate of 13 what that number was that you saw in 14 Mr. Livingstone's office? 15 A Give you an estimate of the number? 16 Q Yes. 17 A Significantly fewer than in 18 Mr. Kennedy's office. I wouldn't attempt to 19 give you a number in Mr. Kennedy's office, so 20 it would be hard to do it in 21 Mr. Livingstone's office. 22 Very small amount in comparison. 608 1 Q Were there dozens, were there 2 hundreds? 3 A Well, I have never, press reports 4 that I've read allude to 900 FBI files. I've 5 always thought that what I saw was 6 significantly more. 7 Q In Mr. Kennedy's office? 8 A Yes. 9 Q I'm referring, if I was vague, to 10 Mr. Livingstone's office. 11 A Right, so I don't know that I'm the 12 best judge of numbers. 13 I don't even remember stacks and 14 stacks. I remember having an impression that 15 these were the same as those in Mr. Kennedy's 16 office and elsewhere. 17 Q You testified that Mr. Livingstone 18 and Mr. Marceca told you that these were not, 19 to use your words, security background files? 20 A Could you read me that portion, 21 please. 22 Q Sure, it's page 136 of the 609 1 December 14th transcript, line 1. 135 2 to 136, yes, thank you. 3 A Okay, could you repeat your 4 question, please. 5 Q Now that you've read the testimony, 6 I take it you recall it? 7 A Yeah, I do. 8 Q I guess, well let me put it this 9 way, did you ask Mr. Livingstone or 10 Mr. Marceca what these files were? 11 A Well, I think I testified that I 12 spoke to them on different occasions and that 13 is my recollection that they were not, I 14 didn't speak to them at the same time. 15 I asked them both separately what 16 those were and it had to do with actually a 17 business reason for asking, something to do 18 with the logging system for security 19 background files that had to do with Craig 20 Livingstone's assistant, trying to get a 21 promotion, business cards, that kind of 22 thing, writing a job description and 610 1 justifying a pay grade promotion and title 2 change. 3 It was in that regard, I believe, 4 that my conversation with Craig occurred 5 about those, about are these the security 6 background folders, files, whatever, that you 7 would log in. We were trying to write, 8 actually, a job description, a new job 9 description for the assistant. 10 Q I see. Having told you what they 11 were not, did they tell you what they were? 12 A No. 13 Q Can you with any greater 14 specificity than any of the other files we've 15 talked about describe these files? 16 A No. 17 Q Did they say anything on the 18 outside to indicate that they were FBI files? 19 A No, they just looked like the other 20 ones which had been pointed out to me as 21 being FBI files. 22 Q Do you have a recollection of when 611 1 this conversation took place? 2 A No, I don't even know if it 3 pre-dated the FBI explanation from Betsy. 4 When I say it's all of a piece, I mean that 5 eventually it all made sense to me. Again, 6 that's only my conclusion. 7 Q Did you ever know anybody at the 8 White House named Nancy Gemmel? 9 A The name, but I don't have a 10 distinct recollection. 11 Q Do you have a recollection of her 12 working in the Office of Personnel Security? 13 A If I'm not mistaken, my 14 recollection is that she was there in the 15 Bush White House. 16 Q Did you ever have any dealings with 17 Gemmel when you were in the Bush White House? 18 A I think so, I just don't recall 19 specifically. I didn't work for the 20 Counsel's Office in the Bush White House, so 21 I would have had far fewer dealings with that 22 office on a professional basis. 612 1 Q Do you recall whether all the files 2 that you saw in Mr. Livingstone's office 3 looked the same or do you have a recollection 4 of them looking different? 5 A This fell off. 6 Q I understand. 7 A I don't have the same clear 8 recollection that I had in Bill Kennedy's 9 office, except that I remember saying -- 10 thinking to myself, these look like the other 11 ones. 12 I can't tell you right now if that 13 meant these look like the ones in Bill 14 Kennedy's office or these look like the ones 15 that were on Vince's desk that ended up in 16 the safe. To me, they just reminded me of 17 the other ones I had seen. 18 Q Well, I'm just asking, focusing 19 specifically and exclusively on 20 Mr. Livingstone's office. 21 A I know that, but you're asking me 22 if they -- 613 1 Q Do you recall there being in his 2 office basically one kind of file or many 3 different kinds of files? 4 A Oh, I'm sorry, I misunderstood the 5 question. 6 Q That's okay. 7 A I recall that there were files that 8 I was shown during the time that Craig was 9 trying to get his assistant promoted in 10 showing me the logging system that were 11 different from the files I'm referencing when 12 I speak of files I saw in Craig's office. I 13 know he's going to ask me, how are they 14 different. I don't remember. 15 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Let him ask the 16 question. 17 THE WITNESS: I know. He's the one 18 with no time. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: We are going to have 20 a period, Ms. Tripp, when you get to ask 21 Mr. Gilligan questions at the end. 22 THE WITNESS: I'm sure he'll be 614 1 thrilled. 2 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 3 Q In our December 14th session you 4 testified that while you worked at the White 5 House, the files on your desktop, the 6 computer files on your desktop computer were 7 backed up to some sort of server or computer 8 system? 9 A Oh. 10 Q Do you recall that? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Do you recall when that back-up 13 system came into place? 14 A No, I don't. I know that we were 15 told and in practicality found this to be 16 true, that nothing ever disappeared, even if 17 you lost data, somehow, that it could be 18 retrieved elsewhere and routinely was. 19 Q Do you recall whether this system 20 was in place during the Bush Administration? 21 A Well, I don't know that it was the 22 same system. I know that I was able to 615 1 request assistance through the computer shop 2 and retrieve lost data. I remember a 3 specific instance in the late Fall of '92 4 where we were able to do that, so that was 5 during the Bush time. 6 Q Sure, okay. You reference this 7 back-up system having a nickname Big Brother, 8 do you recall testifying to that? 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Testifies 10 to facts. Why don't you show her the 11 testimony. 12 MR. GILLIGAN: I'll conduct the 13 deposition in my own fashion. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll object in my own 15 fashion, how's that. 16 MR. GILLIGAN: Okay, all right. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Assumes facts not in 18 evidence. 19 MR. GILLIGAN: You objected. 20 Please don't purport to instruct me how to 21 conduct the deposition, Mr. Klayman. That's 22 all I ask. 616 1 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Mrs. Trip, would 2 you like to look at your testimony before you 3 answer the question? 4 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I would. 5 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 6 Q There were several examples, why 7 don't you try page 112 of the December 14th 8 transcript. 9 A Okay. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: 112? 11 MR. GILLIGAN: Yes. 12 THE WITNESS: Oh, yes, okay, 13 uh-huh. 14 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 15 Q The nickname Big Brother, do you 16 recall whether this back-up system had that 17 nickname during the Bush Administration, as 18 well? 19 A I don't. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, compound. 21 THE WITNESS: But let me clarify, 22 it's capitalized here as a name and maybe I 617 1 misspoke. 2 We never, I don't recall ever being 3 told that there was a back-up system named 4 Big Brother. We referred to it as Big 5 Brother as sort of a good thing. This is 6 something we can count on to retrieve data. 7 It was also in this context that we 8 understood that our electronic mail 9 transmissions were kept indefinitely. 10 This is separate and apart from 11 what the Clinton Administration began in 12 terms of saving or assigning, assigning 13 Presidential record delineation of files. 14 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 15 Q A preexisting? 16 A I think that was a Clinton 17 Administration initiative. I don't believe 18 we did that in the Bush White House. We may 19 well have at the end, I don't think so. 20 But this Big Brother name bothers 21 me in that it sounds like we were discussing 22 a database of some sort that had some sort of 618 1 nefarious reason for existence. That's not 2 how we thought of it. 3 Q When you say we, who's we? 4 A The people in the Counsel's Office 5 with whom I worked, any of us who used the 6 computers. 7 Q When we spoke on January 5th, and 8 I'll tell you it's page 512 of that 9 transcript, if you want to look at it, you 10 said that you were told that the file 11 concerning Mr. Inman? 12 A Bobby Inman's vetting file. 13 Q Right, as you say, had come from 14 Mr. Kennedy's office? 15 A Can I read this again? 16 Q Sure. Sure, page 512. 17 A We thought all vetting came from 18 Mr. Kennedy's office. 19 Where is that, line 9 you're 20 referring to? 21 Q I'm actually referring to line 21. 22 A Uh-huh. 619 1 Q Do you recall who told you that? 2 A I don't. To be completely clear, 3 any time we talked about vetting files, we 4 thought or were told or I think any of us can 5 answer that we thought it came from Bill 6 Kennedy's office, to a certain point, and 7 then we thought it came from Beth Nolan's 8 office. 9 We didn't believe that any vetting 10 files originated in the West Wing, so I 11 didn't pull that out of thin air in terms of 12 at the time didn't just guess it came from 13 Mr. Kennedy's office, so I'm assuming that 14 someone told me and I don't know who. 15 Q Other than the conversation you had 16 with Mr. Klayman, just prior to the 17 deposition today, have you had any 18 conversations with Mr. Klayman since our 19 January 5th session of the deposition? 20 A Me? 21 Q Yes. 22 A No. 620 1 Q Just checking. 2 A No. 3 MR. GILLIGAN: I think I'll take a 4 break here and see if I have anything else 5 and if I don't, someone else will forge 6 ahead. 7 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record 8 at 2:39 p.m. 9 (Recess) 10 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On the record 11 at 3:02 p.m. 12 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 13 Q Ms. Tripp, do you recall testifying 14 before the Senate Special Whitewater 15 Committee regarding Mr. Foster's death in 16 August of 1995? 17 A Yes. 18 Q To the best of your recollection, 19 did you testify truthfully, accurately and 20 completely as best you could? 21 A I didn't testify completely. 22 Q You did not testify completely? 621 1 A No. 2 Q What did you not testify completely 3 to? 4 A Many issues. 5 Q Did you answer every question that 6 was put to you as truthfully, accurately and 7 completely as you could? 8 A I answered each question narrowly 9 and truthfully. 10 Q But nevertheless, accurately? 11 A Narrowly, truthfully, if narrowly. 12 MR. GILLIGAN: I have no further 13 questions. 14 MR. GAFFNEY: Can we just pause for 15 one moment? 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Pausing for 17 Ms. Ziegler? 18 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR DEFENDANT 19 HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON 20 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 21 Q Good afternoon, Ms. Tripp. My name 22 is Paul Gaffney. I'm an attorney at Williams 622 1 and Connolly. I'm representing the First 2 Lady in this matter. 3 On page 27 of your December 14th 4 testimony, you stated that you endeavored to 5 write a book to expose several of the 6 scandals that I had witnessed during my time 7 at the White House; do you recall that 8 testimony? 9 A Yes, I do. 10 Q Is this the book project involving 11 Maggie Gallagher that you testified to during 12 your Grand Jury appearance? 13 A It is. 14 Q Do you still have a copy of that 15 book proposal? 16 A I don't, I don't know where it is 17 at this moment. 18 Q When's the last time you've seen 19 that? 20 A I don't remember, to tell you the 21 truth. 22 Q What did you do with the copy you 623 1 had? 2 A I don't remember. 3 Q When's the last time you saw a copy 4 of it? 5 A Didn't you just ask me that. 6 Q I'll ask it again. 7 A I don't remember, again. 8 Q How many pages was it? 9 A I don't remember. It was a draft. 10 Q Who actually wrote it? 11 A It was typed by Maggie Gallagher. 12 Q Do you know whether it was done on 13 a word processor? 14 A I don't know. 15 Q Who else had copies of it at the 16 time you looked at it? 17 A I don't think anyone had a copy. 18 Q Ms. Gallagher had a copy? 19 A She FedExed me her draft. 20 Q How about Ms. Goldberg, did she 21 have a copy? 22 A I don't think so, but not from me, 624 1 in any event. 2 Q Do you know whether she ever saw 3 it? 4 A Not from me. I don't know. 5 Q When you made reference to several 6 of the scandals, what episodes were you 7 referring to? 8 A The idea of the book evolved over 9 time, but it evolved, came to a head during 10 the time that Gary Aldrich's book had been 11 published and he had been vilified by the 12 White House and its apologists as being, at 13 best, disingenuous and at worst, a liar and 14 someone who was misrepresenting the truth. 15 The idea, my idea was to vindicate 16 Gary Aldrich and to show on a more personal 17 level exactly how true what he had written 18 was and bring it another step beyond that. 19 Q I appreciate your answer on that, 20 but when you testified on December 14th that 21 you endeavored to write a book to expose 22 several of the scandals identify for me 625 1 specifically which of the scandals, to use 2 your word, you were referring to? 3 A Certainly the women having to do 4 with the President, that was one chapter. 5 There were chapters about the firing of the 6 Travel Office and events that led up to that 7 firing, the aftermath of that. 8 Certainly information about the 9 events leading up to and the aftermath of 10 Vince Foster's death, Whitewater related, the 11 appointing of a special prosecutor, 12 information about Mr. Kendall. 13 Q How about the FBI files matter? 14 A I don't remember, to tell you the 15 truth. 16 Q Is it likely that you would have 17 put that in there? 18 A I believe it was in there. I 19 believe yes. I just don't have a specific 20 recollection about, to what degree of detail 21 there was, but since I had spoken to Tony 22 Snow at length about this, it would be my 626 1 conclusion that I would have certainly 2 included that. 3 Q Did you make any effort to obtain a 4 copy of this book proposal, let's call it, in 5 response to the subpoena Mr. Klayman served 6 on you? 7 A From where? I don't know what you 8 mean. 9 Q Did you call anyone to say do you 10 have a copy of that, I need to produce it in 11 connection with this lawsuit? 12 A I don't know. 13 Q You don't know whether you made any 14 effort to find this? 15 A Oh, no, I don't know anyone who has 16 it. 17 Q Did you call Ms. Gallagher? 18 A I don't think I even have 19 Ms. Gallagher's phone number. 20 Q Did you call Ms. Goldberg to ask 21 her whether she had a copy? 22 A No, I never knew Ms. Goldberg to 627 1 have a copy of this. It was my understanding 2 that Maggie had sent me her draft and I 3 didn't send it back because it was not going 4 to go anywhere, we decided. 5 It was too sensational. It was not 6 worth losing an 18-year Government career. 7 It was a cowardly thing to do to withdraw. 8 Q Did you look for a copy of this 9 book proposal in your own files in connection 10 with this subpoena? 11 A I've looked in my own files for 12 anything responsive to this subpoena. 13 Q Mr. Gilligan asked you as his last 14 question or series of questions whether you 15 recall testifying in front of the House 16 Committee, I believe? 17 MR. GILLIGAN: Senate Whitewater 18 Committee. 19 THE WITNESS: Senate Banking 20 Committee. 21 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 22 Q Do you recall giving a deposition 628 1 in July 1995 to a House Committee 2 investigating the Whitewater matter? 3 A A House Committee, no, I don't 4 think I did. 5 Q Do you recall giving a deposition 6 and I'm saying that as opposed to testifying 7 actually in front of -- 8 A It was a Senate Banking Committee 9 deposition. 10 Q You were under oath in that matter? 11 A Correct. 12 Q You testified truthfully, I assume? 13 A I testified truthfully and narrowly 14 throughout that entire procedure. 15 Q But you were never purposefully 16 misleading in any respect, were you? 17 A When called upon to give my 18 opinions, I gave the most positive spin I 19 could within the confines and constraints of 20 being truthful, yeah. 21 Q But when asked for factual 22 testimony, you certainly provided truthful 629 1 testimony? 2 A Why don't you give me an example of 3 what you're asking. 4 Q Well, I just want to -- 5 A I did not lie under oath. I was 6 not complete under oath. 7 Q Thank you. 8 MR. GAFFNEY: I'd ask you to mark 9 this as Tripp Exhibit 10. 10 (Tripp Deposition Exhibit No. 10 11 was marked for identification.) 12 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 13 Q Ms. Tripp, I'd ask you to take a 14 look at what we've had marked as Tripp 15 Exhibit 10, which I'll represent to you is 16 excerpts from a Senate Banking Committee 17 matter. 18 It says deposition of Linda R. 19 Tripp; do you see that? 20 A I do. 21 Q Could you turn to the page that 22 says 3568 at the top; do you see that? 630 1 A I see the number. 2 Q Look at the page marked 48, if you 3 would. 4 In line 3 there's a question, do 5 you see that question, it was your 6 understanding that the relationship between 7 the White House Counsel's Office and the 8 First Lady's office was close. You say 9 close. 10 The question is there were a lot of 11 contacts between the First Lady's office and 12 the White House Counsel's Office. You 13 answered well, we also had a lot of contact 14 with the immediate office, with Bruce 15 Lindsay, with the Chief of Staff's office as 16 well, so I don't know how you define close. 17 Do you see that? 18 A Uh-huh. 19 Q That was truthful testimony, I 20 gather? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Could you look at the next page, it 631 1 says 3569 at the top and it looks to be 2 deposition page 49. 3 The questioning that begins on 4 line 7, do you see that? 5 A Uh-huh. 6 Q Could you take a moment to just 7 review down to the end of that page 49. 8 A Right, I see this. 9 Q That testimony was accurate; is 10 that correct? 11 A That's right. 12 Q I would like to refer you to your 13 testimony from January 5th. 14 A Okay. 15 Q I actually brought a copy of this, 16 I don't know if Mr. Zaccagnini has one, but 17 I'm not going to mark it as an exhibit, but 18 why don't you supply it to the witness. 19 MR. ZACCAGNINI: No, we don't have 20 it, please. 21 THE WITNESS: It's right here. 22 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'm sorry, it's 632 1 right here. 2 THE WITNESS: What page? 3 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 4 Q Let's see, page 361. Starting on 5 line 14, do you see that Mr. Klayman asked 6 you the question, is it your belief that 7 Foster and Kennedy took orders from Hillary 8 Clinton, do you believe that? I objected. 9 Then you answer yes; do you see that? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Can you recall any specific orders 12 that Mrs. Clinton gave to Mr. Foster or 13 Mr. Kennedy? 14 A Well, the question was is it your 15 belief. 16 Q I understand that, I understand 17 it's your belief. 18 A So I'm telling you that to this 19 day, it is my belief that specifically Vince 20 Foster and Bill Kennedy worked for 21 Mrs. Clinton. Was it on a wiring diagram so 22 indicating, no, it was not. 633 1 Q I understand your testimony. My 2 question is whether you recall any specific 3 orders that Mrs. Clinton gave either of those 4 two individuals? 5 A I remember an order having to do 6 with the firing of the Travel Office from 7 Mrs. Clinton to Mr. Foster, yes. 8 Q What was that order? 9 A In handwriting on a memo in 10 Mrs. Clinton's hand signed HRC, which said, 11 we need our people out, out underlined -- we 12 need these people out, out underlined, we 13 need our people in, in underlined, HRC. 14 That was on a memo and it is 15 something that I discussed with Phil Larson, 16 actually, during the time that he, contacted 17 me when he was working on a House Committee 18 looking into the Travel Office. 19 Q Other than that instance, are you 20 aware of any other? 21 A I can only tell you what I observed 22 with Craig Livingstone, Bill Kennedy and 634 1 Vince Foster and I reiterate that -- 2 Q You've testified to that? 3 A I'm sorry? 4 Q Is that what you testified to? 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Let her 6 answer. 7 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 8 Q You can answer. 9 A Well, you can tell me if I have 10 already. I believe I have stated in the past 11 that it was my belief that these individuals 12 had a direct line of communication with 13 Mrs. Clinton and did not seem to have that 14 same interaction with the immediate office. 15 Our office certainly did. I'm 16 speaking of these three individuals 17 specifically. 18 Q Now in your testimony on the first 19 day you stated that there was a meeting in 20 Mr. Foster's office and that Deb Gorham, you 21 asked Deb Gorham what the meeting was about 22 and she wrote something down that said Travel 635 1 Office? 2 A That's right. 3 Q Did I accurately paraphrase that? 4 A Yes, uh-huh. 5 Q How many times did Ms. Gorham tell 6 you that a specific meeting was about the 7 Travel Office? 8 A I'm not sure I understand the 9 question. 10 Q Was it just that one time? Let me 11 rephrase the question. Is that the only time 12 Deb Gorham told you that a specific meeting 13 was about the Travel Office? 14 A I don't believe so. 15 Q How many other times did she tell 16 you that? 17 A Again, I don't remember how many 18 other times. I do know that I, in my 19 recollection, the first time I saw this odd 20 compilation of folks come in to our office, 21 when I asked the question was when she wrote 22 down Travel Office. I don't believe it was 636 1 the only time we spoke of it. 2 Q But you can't recall a specific 3 time that you did; is that fair to say? 4 A What do you mean? 5 Q You recall the once, a specific 6 instance? 7 A I remember her writing down Travel 8 Office, certainly, yes. 9 Q Other than that time, can you 10 recall any specific instance where she said 11 they are meeting about the Travel Office or 12 so indicated to you? 13 A More than that time and not in 14 writing. 15 Q I'd ask you to turn back to your 16 House deposition, the excerpt of which I gave 17 you. 18 A House, you mean Senate? 19 Q I'm sorry, the Senate. Page 3567, 20 it's the second to last question on the 21 bottom of that page. 22 A I'm sorry, on what page? 637 1 Q 3567. 2 A Okay. 3 Q Do you see that, and you were asked 4 the question, you're being asked questions 5 about Maggie Williams; do you see that? 6 A Okay, what line? 7 Q Line 18. 8 A What does that speak to? Could you 9 clarify the time? 10 Q Well, take as much time as you want 11 to review this excerpt of your testimony. 12 A I don't even know what we are 13 talking about here. Oh, visits with the 14 First Lady, is that the area? 15 Q Right. There's a question on 16 line 7 there, was Maggie Williams a frequent 17 visitor of Mr. Foster; and you indicated yes? 18 A Oh, we are down on that page, okay, 19 sorry. I was up on the other one. 20 Where shall I stop? 21 Q See the question that begins on 22 line 18, do you have any understanding as to 638 1 the types of matters that Mr. Foster was 2 working on with Ms. Williams? 3 A Correct. 4 Q I have no firsthand knowledge; that 5 was your response, correct? 6 A Yes, I see that. 7 Q Then the question is, do you have 8 any second-hand knowledge. Your answer is 9 not really, I never asked any questions, so 10 it wasn't my business what Maggie wanted. 11 A This pertains to matters having to 12 do with the First Lady, does it not? 13 Q I'm not exactly sure what it 14 pertains to, it's just a question about 15 matters that Ms. Williams was working on with 16 Mr. Foster. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: I would just say 18 allow the witness to take time to review the 19 testimony so she can figure out what it 20 pertains to. 21 THE WITNESS: This appears to me, 22 unless I'm mistaken, that this testimony 639 1 starting with 18 refers to first- or 2 second-hand knowledge about the business that 3 Maggie Williams had with Mr. Foster; am I not 4 correct? 5 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 6 Q Correct? 7 A So what is your question? 8 Q Before that you say that she was 9 one of Mr. Foster's most frequent visitors. 10 A True. 11 Q In your testimony on the 14th you 12 seemed to indicate that there were a number 13 of meetings in Mr. Foster's office and that 14 Maggie Williams attended at least some of 15 them; is that correct? 16 A Are we talking about the Travel 17 Office meetings? 18 Q Just meetings around that time, 19 which I assume were in -- 20 A Well I think what you're -- I don't 21 know what you're referring to. 22 I know that I referenced in my 640 1 prior testimony that I saw Maggie Williams in 2 an office, a Whitewater damage control 3 meeting in John Podesta's office. 4 Q Are you aware of any meeting that 5 Maggie Williams had in Mr. Foster's office 6 where the subject of that meeting was the 7 Travel Office? 8 A I don't know. I don't know. As I 9 sit here right now, I'm not certain that she 10 was one of the attendees at one of the 11 meetings. My -- I believe she was at one of 12 the meetings, but I don't, I can't tell you 13 for sure which one and I can't tell you for 14 sure how long she was there. It was just an 15 impression I had. 16 Q But if you had had a clear 17 recollection of it in 1995, you would have 18 probably said so in response to those 19 questions? 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading, 21 calls for speculation. 22 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure what 641 1 question you're referring to. 2 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 3 Q The ones that you were asked in 4 that deposition? 5 A Which questions specifically? 6 Q You were asked in that deposition 7 whether you had any knowledge? 8 MR. KLAYMAN: What deposition are 9 you talking about? 10 MR. GAFFNEY: Mr. Klayman, if the 11 witness has a problem with my questions or 12 counsel has a problem with my questions -- 13 MR. KLAYMAN: I object, it's vague 14 and ambiguous. 15 MR. GAFFNEY: Why don't you let me 16 get my question out before you make an 17 objection. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: You did get it out, 19 Mr. Gaffney. 20 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 21 Q You were asked -- 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, vague and 642 1 ambiguous. 2 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 3 Q You were asked, do you have any 4 understanding as to the types of matters that 5 Mr. Foster was working on with Ms. Williams 6 and you said I have no firsthand knowledge. 7 A Uh-huh. 8 MR. ZACCAGNINI: What page are you 9 on, I'm sorry? 10 MR. GAFFNEY: 3568. 11 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 12 Q He asked do you have second-hand 13 knowledge, you said not really, I never asked 14 questions. 15 So if you had recalled at that time 16 that she had attended a meeting about the 17 Travel Office, you probably would have said 18 so; isn't that fair to say? 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading, 20 calls for speculation. 21 THE WITNESS: You know, what this 22 was referring to, and I'm sorry if I answered 643 1 probably too narrowly on this particular 2 occasion, however, these questions had to do 3 with the -- as I understood them, questions 4 about Maggie's back and forth and movement of 5 files and her movements as it pertained to 6 Mr. Foster, specifically in the aftermath of 7 his death, prior to and in the aftermath of 8 his death. 9 So, in this particular sequence of 10 questions, I don't know that if I had, in the 11 back of my mind, remembered Maggie on behalf 12 of Mrs. Clinton being at a Travel Office 13 meeting, that that's one that I would have 14 contributed to at that point. 15 I think we were talking here, and 16 again, I feel I'm at a slight disadvantage 17 not having a chance to review almost 18 three-year old testimony, but I do believe we 19 were talking about Maggie's movements as it 20 pertained to Mr. Foster, specifically. 21 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 22 Q You testified on the 14th about two 644 1 conversations that you overheard between 2 Marcia Scott and Mr. Kennedy? 3 A Correct. 4 Q Do you recall that? 5 A Yes. 6 Q I want to talk about the first one. 7 When did this occur? 8 A I testified I'm not sure. I 9 testified I know where the first one 10 occurred. 11 Q That's what I'm saying, the first 12 one, it occurred? 13 A In the old EOB. 14 Q Where were you working at the time? 15 A I don't know for sure. My sense is 16 that I was still working in the West Wing 17 Counsel's Office. 18 Q Do you recall what you were doing 19 at the OEOB at the time? 20 A I have no idea. I think it's fair 21 to say I was in the old OEOB probably every 22 single day that I worked at the White House, 645 1 as you're probably aware, so I don't know 2 that I would remember. 3 Q How close were you in proximity to 4 Ms. Scott and Mr. Kennedy? 5 A Oh, God. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, vague as 7 to time. 8 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 9 Q Again, I'm referring to this -- 10 A Close enough to overhear, and I 11 think I testified that I was attempting to 12 hear. 13 Q You testified that Mr. Kennedy had 14 files in his hand; is that correct? 15 A On that particular occasion. 16 Q Right. Did you see any names on 17 these files? 18 A No. 19 Q Did you look in these files? 20 A Did I look in them? No. 21 Q These files I gather had a 22 commonality with the file you saw on 646 1 Mr. Foster's desk that said Dale on it; is 2 that correct? 3 A Well, what I've testified to is 4 that the files that I have come to believe 5 were FBI files had a commonality to them. 6 The files that Mr. Kennedy had in 7 his arms that day I believed at the time, I 8 still believe, today, were those types of 9 files. That's only my belief. 10 Q Tell me everything you can that you 11 recall about the conversation that occurred 12 between Ms. Scott and Mr. Kennedy? 13 A My recollection was at the time 14 that I saw them that Marcia was giving 15 instruction to Mr. Kennedy about the 16 inputting of data. I remember the words 17 database, I remember DNC. 18 It was as though she was 19 instructing him, and actually the second 20 conversation was much the same. I don't know 21 that the second conversation included the 22 words DNC, but I do remember it being much 647 1 the same, except a hand gesture and the 2 reference to the First Lady. 3 Q What did she say to Mr. Kennedy 4 that leads you to believe it was an 5 instruction of some sort? 6 A Again, it's been too long for me to 7 be specifically in any way a verbatim 8 explanation. 9 My impression overhearing what I 10 did was that this was an instruction having 11 to do with entering data in to a database 12 from files that included a sharing of data 13 with the DNC, White House and the DNC. My 14 further impression was that she, somehow, was 15 in charge of it. It seemed a bit askew to 16 me. 17 Q Have you told me everything you 18 recall about this conversation? 19 A I don't know. 20 Q Sitting here today, have you told 21 me everything that you -- 22 A I don't know, I just don't know. I 648 1 mean I don't know. I'd have to sit here and 2 think about it and I don't know. 3 Q I ask you to sit here and think 4 about it and take as much time as you need. 5 A I don't know. At the moment I 6 think I may have, I may not have. 7 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Why don't we take 8 a break for a second. 9 MR. GAFFNEY: No, I don't want to 10 take a break. 11 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Well, I do. Let's 12 take a break for a second. 13 MR. GAFFNEY: Well, I'd ask that 14 Mr. Zaccagnini not to confer with his witness 15 with this question pending. 16 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Well, I'm going to 17 take a break with my client. 18 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record 19 at 3:27 p.m.) 20 (Recess) 21 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On the record 22 at 3:42 p.m. 649 1 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Mr. Gaffney, I'm 2 sorry, before you go ask your question, and I 3 won't hold this time against you, I want to 4 do something, I want to put something on the 5 record and I want to clarify something which 6 will probably allow you, put you in a 7 position where you're going to want to ask 8 more questions. 9 MR. GAFFNEY: Hold on, what are we 10 doing here? 11 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'm going to put a 12 statement on the record, in this proceeding, 13 okay? 14 MR. GAFFNEY: Okay. 15 MR. ZACCAGNINI: You had asked 16 Ms. Tripp some questions earlier, I think 17 your first set of questions in this 18 deposition about the location and the 19 existence of a book proposal. 20 MR. GAFFNEY: Correct. 21 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I've just had a 22 conversation with Ms. Tripp about that book 650 1 proposal. I want you to know that I did not 2 have any conversation with her about your 3 pending question. 4 MR. GAFFNEY: Thank you. 5 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I've advised 6 Ms. Tripp that she may be, that, in fact, she 7 is in possession of the book proposal, to the 8 best of my knowledge, and that is because a 9 week ago, less than a week ago she asked me 10 to turn over to her certain documents which I 11 had obtained from Jim Moody, which it was my 12 understanding that Jim Moody had obtained 13 from Mr. Kirby Bear. 14 It's a redwell full of documents 15 and I couldn't recount for you the entire 16 contents of everything that's in that 17 redwell, and it's substantial, it's about six 18 inches thick, and contained in that document, 19 basically my review of that redwell, is the 20 book proposal. 21 I believe that I looked at the book 22 proposal before I responded to Mr. Klayman's 651 1 request for production of documents. It's my 2 recollection, and I'll be glad to revisit 3 this and provide you this, if I'm mistaken, 4 that there wasn't any mention about Filegate 5 in that book proposal. 6 Ms. Tripp thinks otherwise. If I'm 7 mistaken, then I made the mistake and I will 8 be glad to turn a copy of that over to you if 9 I believe it to be responsive to -- I'll turn 10 it over to Mr. Klayman and to everybody else 11 if it is responsive to the document request. 12 Therefore, if there is an error, 13 it's an error that I made and not Ms. Tripp 14 because Ms. Tripp was not in possession of 15 the book proposal when we went through all of 16 her files to look at, for documents 17 responsive to the request. 18 That document was contained in my 19 personal safe and I'm almost sure that I did 20 look at it before I responded to the request, 21 because I have a recollection of going 22 through the redwell before I responded to the 652 1 document request, but I will revisit that and 2 advise all the parties as to whether or not I 3 believe that document is responsive to the 4 request. 5 Having said that, you may want to 6 ask Ms. Tripp some questions. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: I would ask 8 Mr. Zaccagnini if you can look through all of 9 the documents and see if there's anything 10 that's responsive to the request in there. 11 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Mr. Klayman, I'm 12 sorry, go ahead -- 13 MR. KLAYMAN: It's broader than 14 just the use of the word Filegate as we 15 defined it in the subpoena. 16 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Right, I 17 understand that and I don't have a complete 18 recollection of having looked at the book 19 proposal, but I may have, and it would be 20 inconsistent with my recollection to think 21 that I did not, but I'll have to go back and 22 look at it again. 653 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Fine. 2 MR. GAFFNEY: What time do we have 3 now? 4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: It's 3:45. 5 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I would add just 6 one last thing, Mrs. Tripp has not had an 7 opportunity to go through the materials in 8 the redwell, so she's probably, I am sure 9 that she's unaware that she's in possession 10 of it. 11 THE WITNESS: I am now. 12 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 13 Q Ms. Tripp, your attorney just made 14 a representation about the book proposal we 15 discussed earlier. 16 I would just join in with what 17 Mr. Klayman said that the subpoena he served 18 on you is broader than simply requesting 19 documents that refer to Filegate and I will 20 accept your attorney's representation that 21 the book proposal will be reviewed very 22 consistently with the request for production. 654 1 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I didn't mean to 2 intentionally limit it to Filegate. I 3 recognize anything, documents related to 4 Government files and I want you to understand 5 that I will certainly make it available to 6 all the parties if, in fact, I find it 7 responsive to the subpoena. If not, you know 8 that it exists, you can do a motion to 9 compel. 10 MR. GAFFNEY: Also, like I said, 11 the subpoena is much broader. I think it's 12 probably inconceivable that the book proposal 13 is not called for in some respect and is 14 certainly relevant to this matter, so we'd 15 ask that you produce it and -- 16 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Well, I don't want 17 to get into a battle with you. Let me make 18 that determination and if it is, it is and if 19 it isn't, it isn't and you know it exists, 20 I'm not hiding the fact that it exists. 21 You can always move to compel and 22 then we can go that route. But let me take a 655 1 look at it and then we'll resolve it that 2 way. 3 MR. GAFFNEY: Thank you. 4 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 5 Q Ms. Tripp, I'd like to discuss the 6 second Marcia Scott, Bill Kennedy 7 conversation that you've testified to on 8 the 14th. 9 I believe you said this discussion 10 occurred in the West Wing; is that correct? 11 A That's correct. 12 Q Tell me everything you can recall 13 about what Ms. Scott and Mr. Kennedy said 14 back and forth to one another. 15 A The conversation was taking place, 16 to the best of my recollection, in the 17 hallway right adjacent to Mrs. Clinton's 18 office and to the Counsel's Office West Wing 19 second floor. 20 Again, it was -- Marcia seemed to 21 be instructing Mr. Kennedy. I don't have an 22 independent recollection about the DNC words. 656 1 I have an independent recollection of Marcia 2 Scott almost ordering Mr. Kennedy to do 3 something having to do with database and 4 pointing to and referencing she wants it 5 done, or words to that effect. 6 Q Can you recall anything else at 7 this time about that conversation? 8 A I think I've told you what I recall 9 at this time. 10 Q Okay, thank you. At your 11 deposition on the 14th, Mr. Klayman showed 12 you a copy of a New York Post article, I 13 think he marked it as Exhibit 6. I've got an 14 extra copy of that, but if you have the 15 original exhibit, I'd appreciate you showing 16 it to the witness. 17 Now this article was published 18 around the time of your Grand Jury testimony 19 this summer; is that correct? 20 A I don't know. 21 Q I believe it talks about you 22 spending more than seven hours before the 657 1 Grand Jury yesterday. 2 A Well, then I guess so. 3 Q Now, you testified in your 4 deposition on the 14th with respect to the 5 discussion of FBI files that the article was 6 inaccurate in certain respects; do you recall 7 that? 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. 9 THE WITNESS: No, I think what I 10 said was that it was in Lucianne Goldberg's 11 very individual manner of speaking. 12 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 13 Q So it's not inaccurate in certain 14 respects? 15 A Well, I think that that's how I 16 testified, that it was Lucianne Goldberg's 17 manner of speaking and interpretation. 18 If you'd like to ask me specific 19 questions about what she said and how I would 20 answer it, I'm happy to do that, or we can 21 review my prior testimony. I think I used 22 the word peculiar. 658 1 Q Why don't we look at your prior 2 testimony. 3 A Where is that? 4 Q Why don't we turn to page 139. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me just ask, 6 let's take a break because we want to make a 7 copy of it. We don't have -- 8 MR. GAFFNEY: I have extra copies. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: All right, thank you. 10 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 11 Q Do you see your testimony there on 12 page 139? 13 A I do, uh-huh. 14 Q So certain, let me phrase it this 15 way, Ms. Goldberg did not provide the New 16 York Post with an accurate recitation of what 17 you told her; is that correct? 18 A Well I don't know what 19 Ms. Goldberg provided the New York Post, at 20 all. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading. 22 THE WITNESS: You asked me, I 659 1 believe, that -- it was Ms. Shapiro who asked 2 me about hand trucks of FBI files. 3 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 4 Q It was actually Mr. Klayman who 5 asked these questions. 6 A My response to that I believe was, 7 well, we can read the record, but I don't 8 know what a hand truck is. 9 Q You were not there when they came 10 in with hand trucks of FBI files or at least 11 you never told Ms. Goldberg that; is that 12 correct? 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Compound, leading. 14 Assumes facts not testified to. 15 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 16 Q Is it correct that you never told 17 Ms. Goldberg that you were there when they 18 came in with hand trucks of FBI files? 19 A It's correct to say that that is 20 apparently Lucianne Goldberg's interpretation 21 of what I told her. 22 Q It's not an accurate 660 1 interpretation; isn't that what you testified 2 to? 3 A Hand trucks would be inaccurate. 4 Loading or unloading meaning from a hand 5 truck would be inaccurate. 6 Q Then there was something about 7 encrypted? 8 A Right. 9 Q You said that was not an accurate 10 recitation of what you told Ms. Goldberg? 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, asked and 12 answered, the testimony speaks for itself. 13 MR. GAFFNEY: Mr. Klayman, please 14 don't interrupt my questions and make 15 objections. You're obviously perfectly 16 entitled to make objections once I'm 17 finished. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: All right, well let 19 me -- 20 MR. GAFFNEY: But, please, let me 21 finish the question before you make the 22 objection. 661 1 MR. KLAYMAN: That's fine, I just 2 want to make it clear to the witness as well 3 as to you that I may object and while I don't 4 represent the witness, I would ask that maybe 5 there be a little hesitation to allow me to 6 object. 7 MR. GAFFNEY: I have no problem 8 whatsoever with that. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. 10 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 11 Q Now the bit about the screen 12 flashing up encrypted, Mr. Klayman asked you, 13 again this is on page 139, is that an 14 accurate recitation of what you told Lucianne 15 Goldberg and you responded no. 16 A No, it's not. Let me just clarify, 17 it's not that, it appears to be a compilation 18 of two different issues confused in the 19 recitation. 20 The word encrypted, if I used it at 21 all, did not have to do with FBI files. It 22 had to do with another issue on Deb Gorham's 662 1 machine when it was located in the West Wing 2 prior to its being moved. 3 What I had told Lucianne Goldberg 4 at the time was that it had been alarming to 5 me that when I tried to enter data from a 6 caller that I was working with on a tainted 7 blood issue, that every time I entered a word 8 that had to do with this particular issue, it 9 would flash up either the word encrypted or 10 password required or something to indicate 11 the file was locked. Had nothing to do with 12 FBI files. 13 Q So Ms. Goldberg got it a little bit 14 wrong; is that fair to say? 15 A As I said, it appears that she's 16 confused at least two issues. 17 Q Did you asks Lucianne Goldberg to 18 call the Post back and have them correct the 19 misimpression the article gave? 20 A You must be joking. 21 Q Did you do anything to correct the 22 false impression that this article -- 663 1 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection to 2 relevance. Don't even answer the question. 3 MR. GAFFNEY: Excuse me, is that an 4 instruction not to answer on the basis of 5 relevance? 6 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I think that's a 7 ridiculous question. 8 MR. GAFFNEY: Your objection is 9 noted and your instruction is noted. 10 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 11 Q Are you going to follow your 12 attorney's instruction not to answer that 13 question? 14 A I'm sorry, could you repeat the 15 question. 16 MR. GAFFNEY: Could you repeat the 17 question. 18 (The reporter read the record as 19 requested.) 20 THE WITNESS: That this article? 21 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 22 Q Conveyed? 664 1 A Well, I'm still confused as to why 2 you think this is one article I should have 3 corrected when I have read so very few 4 articles about me since January of '98 that 5 are accurate. 6 Q You testified on the 5th that you 7 saw -- 8 A On the 5th? 9 MR. ZACCAGNINI: 5th of what? 10 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 11 Q I'm sorry, you testified on the 5th 12 of January regarding seeing what possibly 13 could have looked like Rose law firm files in 14 the safe of Mr. Foster? 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, 16 mischaracterizes testimony. 17 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, could you 18 repeat, forgive me. 19 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 20 Q With regard to the materials that 21 you saw in Mr. Foster's safe that you think 22 could have been Rose law firm files; do you 665 1 recall that testimony? 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. The 3 testimony speaks for itself. Give her an 4 opportunity to review it. 5 THE WITNESS: Can we look at the 6 testimony? 7 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 8 Q Sure. Well, it was testified to at 9 length. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, then let her 11 read it at length. 12 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 13 Q Did Mr. Klayman earlier today show 14 you documents that he represented to be Rose 15 law firm files or copies of documents that he 16 represented to be Rose law firm files? 17 A No. 18 Q In your testimony earlier to 19 Mr. Gilligan about conversations you had had 20 with Mr. Klayman earlier today, you mentioned 21 something about him asking you questions 22 about the Rose law firm files. 666 1 A Correct. 2 Q Did he show you anything? 3 A He didn't. I was shown something, 4 however. 5 Q Who showed those to you? 6 A My attorney. 7 Q Do you recall how thick the 8 documents were that you saw in Mr. Foster's 9 safe that you think might have been the Rose 10 law firm files? 11 A My recollection remains the same, 12 that what I thought I saw appeared very like 13 what I had seen a graphic, superimposed on 14 the television screen, except that my 15 recollection was that if the documents were 16 horizontal, this way, that there was a fold 17 of some sort on perhaps the one end, a third 18 of the documents (indicating). That's what I 19 recall. 20 Q Do you recall what about these 21 documents made you associate them with 22 Mrs. Clinton? 667 1 A I don't. My recollection seems to 2 be that it may have been her initials, but 3 I'm not sure. I don't, I don't have a 4 specific recollection. 5 I know at the time whatever I saw 6 made me believe they belonged to 7 Mrs. Clinton. 8 Q According to the materials that Ken 9 Starr submitted in connection with his work, 10 that you met with people from his office more 11 than 23 times between January and June 12 of 1998. 13 MR. DITKOFF: I'm going to object 14 to this. 15 MR. GAFFNEY: Your objection is 16 noted. 17 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 18 Q Is that correct? 19 A I'm sorry? 20 Q Did you meet with Ken Starr's 21 office at least 23 times between January and 22 June of 1998? 668 1 A If that's a representation of how 2 many times I was there, I'd certainly 3 stipulate, except that many of the times did 4 not involve any interaction between myself 5 and members of the OIC. It was for other 6 purposes. 7 Q But is it fair to say you met 8 with -- 9 A It's fair to say I was there that 10 many times if that's the record, yes. 11 Q You met with investigators or 12 lawyers repeatedly during that period? 13 A Yes, but not all of the 23 times. 14 In fact, many of the 23 times were not with 15 lawyers or investigators. 16 Q Is it correct that you never once 17 mentioned to them during that time that you 18 saw what may have been Rose law firm billing 19 records in Vince Foster's safe in 1993? 20 A It's correct to say that we tabled 21 any discussions outside the parameters of the 22 Lewinsky zone, as we referred to it, until 669 1 later, and later never came. 2 Q But the answer to my question is 3 that there was never any discussion or you 4 didn't ever volunteer this information to 5 them; is that correct? 6 A As I stated and I'll state it 7 again, any of the information I had about the 8 Travel Office, about files, about anything at 9 all having to do with any so-called scandals 10 that were being investigated by the OIC were 11 tabled until the conclusion of the Lewinsky 12 portion of the investigation. So, we 13 discussed only, in those times -- 14 Q Well, before it was tabled, did you 15 have any discussion? 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Can you let her 17 finish her answer. She wasn't finished. 18 THE WITNESS: There was, in my 19 opinion, it appeared as though there was no 20 time to discuss anything but this issue, the 21 current issue, and that involved a great deal 22 of time on my part, as well as theirs. 670 1 I always fully expected them to 2 return to the other issues. 3 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 4 Q They have not? 5 A No. 6 Q Could you look at page 71 of your 7 December 14th testimony. 8 A Uh-huh. 9 Q On line 8 Mr. Klayman is 10 questioning you about you and Ms. Gorham 11 going through the contents of the safe in 12 Mr. Nussbaum's office; correct? 13 A It appears that way, yes. 14 Q Then on line 13 he asked the 15 question tell me everything you observed and 16 then you testify actually for some number of 17 pages. 18 A I'm sorry? 19 Q Do you see that you testified for 20 some number of pages, correct? 21 A What do you mean? 22 Q Well, you talk about what you saw 671 1 in the safe for some number of pages; isn't 2 that correct? 3 A Number of pages? 4 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Well, she hasn't 5 had a chance to read it. Are you talking 6 about for the following several pages of 7 testimony? 8 MR. GAFFNEY: That's correct. 9 THE WITNESS: Oh, I don't know, I 10 haven't read it. Apparently if you say so. 11 I can read the answer I gave at 12 that point that I saw files in a file drawer. 13 What is your question? 14 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 15 Q Notwithstanding the question from 16 Mr. Klayman to tell him everything you 17 observed, you never said anywhere in this 18 first day of testimony that you saw something 19 that you thought were the Rose law firm 20 records in the file, correct? 21 A What I said was I saw files in the 22 file drawer. Did I say what was in each file 672 1 or what I saw, no. 2 Q Well, you talked at some detail 3 about Mr. Kennedy's file, right? 4 A We were talking about FBI files, I 5 thought. I can't represent to you today that 6 what I saw was the Rose law firm billing 7 records or not. I can tell you what I 8 believe they were. 9 Q Does the book proposal you worked 10 on with Maggie Gallagher make any reference 11 to the Rose law firm billing records you 12 think you may have seen? 13 A I don't recall right now. I'm 14 going to review it and give it to you. 15 Q Thank you. 16 A We'll be able to determine that 17 then. 18 Q Would it be fair to say, Ms. Tripp, 19 that you're biased against Mrs. Clinton? 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, calls for 21 a conclusion, legal conclusion. 22 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Biased in what 673 1 way? 2 MR. GAFFNEY: It's just a question. 3 THE WITNESS: In January of 1999, I 4 believe I probably do have a bias, yes. 5 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 6 Q Why are you biased against her? 7 A Because of the events that have 8 transpired over the last several years. I've 9 come to have my own belief that what I saw 10 and what is presented to the public are two 11 very different things. 12 Q Now at least in the Summer of 1996, 13 you had hoped to write a book that would make 14 enough money that if you lost your job, you 15 could afford, you could afford to lose your 16 job; is that correct? 17 A Well, first of all, it wasn't if, 18 it was certainly when. I don't think anyone 19 gives up an 18, at that time, a 17, 18 year 20 Government career lightly and certainly not 21 with some dilution of making a lot of money 22 on one book. 674 1 It was something that I felt very 2 strongly about in terms of getting the 3 material out and -- 4 Q But you weren't going to do it 5 unless you made enough money that if you lost 6 your job you wouldn't be destitute, correct? 7 A Well, certainly I needed to ensure 8 that I could provide for my family, that's 9 true. 10 Q You had some discussions with 11 Ms. Goldberg about how much money one might 12 make off a book like this? 13 A We discussed the likelihood of 14 certain dollar amounts for an advance versus 15 royalties, yes. 16 It was I think wise to remember 17 that the 17 year career I had at that point 18 also involved benefits to include retirement, 19 all of which I would have lost, in great 20 part. 21 Q You testified in your Grand Jury to 22 some extent about those discussions you had 675 1 with Ms. Goldberg about how much money you 2 might make or would need to make off a book? 3 A I'm quite certain I did, that's 4 right. 5 Q Have you recently received a large 6 sum of money from any source? 7 A No. Can you point me in the right 8 direction? 9 Q Are you aware of a report in the 10 press recently that you were looking at 11 a 650,000 dollar house? 12 A Yeah, I've read that, yes. 13 Q Is that report accurate? 14 A Only partially. 15 Q Tell me how it's accurate. 16 A It's accurate in that I have looked 17 at properties over the last two years, 18 probably, in different locations and in 19 different States. 20 For the most part, for my family, 21 and I guess I should go on and say, my mother 22 lost her husband in March of '96 and her dad 676 1 in November of '96, both of whom left her 2 what to us would be considered substantial 3 amounts of money and her plan is to build a 4 family compound somewhere for my sister and I 5 and she and the rest of the family can live. 6 So, I have looked in different 7 locations, as have other family members in 8 other locations. But the -- 9 Q Are you currently writing a book? 10 A No. 11 Q So I assume you haven't received a 12 book advance recently from anyone? 13 A No. 14 Q During the January 5th session of 15 your deposition Mr. Zaccagnini was joking I 16 think with Mr. Gilligan about offered to bet 17 the entire amount of your legal defense fund. 18 You made a comment, that's easy for you to 19 say now that you're being paid. 20 A Yes. 21 Q Is someone paying your legal fees? 22 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection. 677 1 Relevance, instruct you not to answer that 2 question. That is privileged material. 3 MR. GAFFNEY: Are you instructing 4 her on privilege or are you instructing her 5 on relevance? 6 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'm instructing 7 her on privilege and relevance, more on 8 privilege. I'm instructing her not to answer 9 the question on privilege. I'm objecting to 10 the question on relevancy, privilege. 11 MR. GAFFNEY: Is it your position, 12 Mr. Zaccagnini, that I may not ask whether 13 someone is paying her legal fees? 14 MR. ZACCAGNINI: No, you can ask 15 her that question. 16 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 17 Q Is someone paying your legal fees? 18 A I'm sorry, you mean someone, one 19 person paying my legal fees? 20 Q Yes. 21 A No. 22 Q Has any individual offered to pay 678 1 your legal fees? 2 A Oh, no, I wish. I don't have a 3 Walter Kaye. 4 Q I gather you had mailed out a fund 5 raising letter recently? 6 A My second, actually. 7 Q When was your first fund raising 8 letter? 9 A I'm not sure. Prior to the second 10 one. 11 Q Was it this summer, around the time 12 of your Grand Jury testimony? 13 A I'm just not positive. You'd have 14 to check with the direct mail people. 15 Q Who are the direct mail people? 16 A I'm not sure of their name, but you 17 can get that from Mr. Cowder, my spokesperson 18 who deals with the direct mail people. 19 We have a -- I have had for many 20 months a legal defense fund, as does the 21 President, and there have been, to my 22 knowledge, two, in fact, two letters over my 679 1 signature soliciting requests for donations 2 for the legal defense fund. 3 Q Did you draft those letters? 4 A I worked very, very closely with 5 Philip Cowder and one of the direct mail 6 folks to write that letter, yes. 7 Q Is there any reference in the first 8 fund raising letter to the FBI files matter? 9 A I don't recall. I'd have to see 10 it. 11 Q Is there any reference in the 12 second fund raising letter to the FBI files 13 matter? 14 A To the best of my knowledge, the 15 letters are the same. They are just two 16 mailings. I'd have to see the letter. 17 Q Who are these mailed to? 18 A I don't know. They are mailed to 19 people whom, a list that are maintained by a 20 direct mail corporation. I guess much the 21 same way the President's would be. 22 Q Would it be fair to say that they 680 1 are mailed to people who one might expect to 2 be hostile to the Clintons? 3 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'll object to the 4 relevance to this line of questions. You can 5 answer it. 6 THE WITNESS: I don't think they 7 get their lists from the DNC. 8 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 9 Q Well, could you answer my question? 10 A But I don't know. 11 Q Well, would you -- 12 MR. KLAYMAN: I object, vague and 13 ambiguous. How do you define hostile? 14 THE WITNESS: I don't think I'm 15 hostile to the Clinton Administration, so I'm 16 afraid I can't answer that. 17 MR. GAFFNEY: Why don't we take a 18 break to change the tape. Could you give me 19 a time reading? 20 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record 21 at 4:10 p.m. 22 (Recess) 681 1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On the record 2 at 4:23 p.m. 3 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 4 Q Ms. Tripp, are you currently under 5 investigation for making false statements to 6 the Grand Jury here in the District of 7 Columbia? 8 A I don't know. 9 Q Did you testify at the Grand Jury 10 that you were a subject of the OIC's 11 investigation? 12 A No, I would not have said I was a 13 subject. I don't believe ever I would have 14 used the word subject. I've come to 15 understand the meaning of the word subject. 16 Q Are you under investigation for any 17 statements you made to the OIC? 18 A You would have to ask the OIC. I 19 know that -- 20 Q Has anyone ever told you that you 21 were under investigation for any statements 22 you made to the OIC? 682 1 A I believe we were told that I was 2 not a target. There were questions that I'm 3 sure you read in the record about the 4 possibility of tapes being duplicated. 5 I've said for the record and will 6 say again -- 7 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection, hold 8 on. 9 (Counsel conferred with witness) 10 THE WITNESS: I can't say anything, 11 sorry. 12 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 13 Q Why can't you say anything? 14 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'm advising my 15 client not to make any further comment as it 16 relates to that question. 17 MR. GAFFNEY: On the basis of what? 18 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Because it could 19 tend to incriminate her with respect to 20 acknowledging the existence of any evidence 21 which she might have provided to the 22 Independent Counsel's Office. 683 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me also say for 2 the record, although I don't really have to, 3 that under the rules of Civil Procedure, I'm 4 preserving any substantive objections for 5 possible use at trial. 6 MR. GAFFNEY: Could you read the 7 question back. 8 MR. ZACCAGNINI: It wasn't the 9 question as much as what the answer was going 10 to be. 11 MR. GAFFNEY: I understand that. 12 Could you read the question back. 13 (The reporter read the record as 14 requested.) 15 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 16 Q What will you say for the record? 17 A That I don't acknowledge the 18 existence of tapes. 19 Q You don't acknowledge the existence 20 of tapes you may have made? 21 A No. 22 Q Are you under investigation for any 684 1 statements you made to the FBI? 2 A Same answer. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me just ask, 4 Ms. Weissmann, I don't think laughing is 5 appropriate. 6 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 7 Q What's the same answer? 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Wait, I object. I 9 object to the decorum of Counsel for the 10 Justice Department is laughing at this. I 11 don't find that funny. 12 MS. WEISMANN: Mr. Klayman, I 13 certainly disagree with your characterization 14 of my behavior and I think your statement is 15 totally inappropriate. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I ask you not 17 to laugh. I think that's disrespectful. 18 MS. WEISMANN: I have not shown any 19 disrespect for this witness. 20 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 21 Q When you say the same answer, what 22 do you mean the same answer? 685 1 A Your questions have to do with a 2 subject which I cannot acknowledge publicly 3 having to do with something that's being 4 investigated in the State of Maryland right 5 now, and so. 6 Q Are you under criminal 7 investigation in the State of Maryland? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Have you been given any indication 10 by Maryland authorities that they've cleared 11 you of any criminal wrongdoing? 12 A Have I been given any? 13 Q Indication by the authorities in 14 Maryland that you've been cleared of any 15 criminal wrongdoing? 16 A Oh, certainly not. Mrs. Clinton 17 hasn't allowed them to do that yet. 18 Q Do you have any factual basis for 19 making that statement that Mrs. Clinton has 20 anything to do with the criminal 21 investigation that you are under in the State 22 of Maryland? 686 1 A Do I have any factual information? 2 Q Yes. 3 A Early on I heard through various 4 press outlets that Mrs. Clinton and her 5 people had been in touch with Stenny Hoyer 6 and with Kathleen Kennedy Townsend and with 7 Mr. Montanerelli's boss. 8 Q Who told you that? 9 A Various press sources. 10 Q Who are they? 11 A I don't know. You'd have to ask my 12 publicist, so. 13 Q It's true, isn't it that, that you 14 tape recorded -- 15 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection. 16 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 17 Q A resident of -- 18 MR. GAFFNEY: Please let me finish 19 my question. 20 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 21 Q It's true that you tape recorded a 22 resident of the District of Columbia from 687 1 your home in Maryland without her consent; is 2 that correct? 3 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'm going to 4 object to the question. 5 I will instruct the witness not to 6 answer the question because it could violate 7 her Fifth Amendment privilege. 8 MR. GAFFNEY: I understand your 9 advice to her, but that objection needs to be 10 invoked by the witness. 11 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 12 Q Are you invoking that objection to 13 the question? 14 A I'm sorry, on the advice of 15 counsel, I am, yes. 16 Q You are refusing to answer that 17 question on the ground that it may tend to 18 incriminate you? 19 MR. GAFFNEY: She's refusing to 20 answer the question on the advice of Counsel. 21 THE WITNESS: Correct. 22 MR. GAFFNEY: On what basis? 688 1 THE WITNESS: He is my attorney. 2 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 3 Q Are you invoking your Fifth 4 Amendment rights in response to that 5 question? 6 A I'm refusing to answer on the 7 advice of counsel. 8 MR. GAFFNEY: What is the basis for 9 the refusal to answer? 10 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Well, it's two 11 bases, one is the Judge has already 12 instructed that any information related to 13 that investigation, I believe, is out of 14 bounds. I believe it's beyond the scope of 15 permissible discovery in this deposition. 16 Secondarily, as I've already 17 indicated, that I've advised my client not to 18 respond to that question on the basis that it 19 may incriminate her. 20 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 21 Q Are you going to accept your 22 attorney's advice? 689 1 A I am, yes. 2 Q Have you ever taken a lie detector 3 test? 4 A Yes. 5 Q How many times? 6 A At least once. 7 Q More than once? 8 A I can't remember if I took one when 9 I worked for Delta Force. I know there was a 10 roster of those random as the drug testing 11 program at the White House, but I don't think 12 my turn came up. 13 So I think the only one that I can 14 recall is the one I had this past year. 15 Q Did you testify truthfully in front 16 of the Grand Jury concerning your plans over 17 the years to write a book? 18 A I'm sorry? 19 Q Did you testify truthfully to the 20 Grand Jury concerning your plans you had to 21 write a book? 22 A I testified truthfully at all times 690 1 to the Grand Jury. 2 Q We've already discussed earlier the 3 book proposal that Maggie Gallagher prepared 4 and that you rejected; is that fair to say 5 that she prepared a book proposal that you 6 rejected? 7 A It's fair to say that I withdrew 8 from the project. 9 Q Your Grand Jury testimony I believe 10 was that that occurred in August of 1996; 11 does that sound right? 12 A June of '96. I believe that was 13 the year that Gary Aldrich's book came out, 14 so yes. 15 Q You testified in front of the Grand 16 Jury, tell me if you recall this, that when I 17 threw away the book idea in August 1996, I 18 was completely finished with it. 19 A That's true. 20 Q Is that correct? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Now you also testified to the Grand 691 1 Jury regarding the reasons for your taping 2 Ms. Lewinsky in 1997; is that correct? 3 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'll advise you 4 not to answer that question on the basis 5 that, for two bases, one is the Judge has 6 already instructed that any information 7 related to the Lewinsky investigation is 8 beyond the scope of permissible discovery in 9 this case. 10 Secondarily, because a response to 11 that question may incriminate you in 12 violation of your Fifth Amendment privilege. 13 MR. GAFFNEY: Let's see if we can 14 get around your concerns there. 15 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 16 Q Did you testify to the Grand Jury 17 that in the Fall of 1997, that "there was no 18 book proposal at that time, there is no book 19 proposal and this had nothing to do with the 20 book proposal?" 21 A Correct. 22 Q Was that truthful testimony? 692 1 A Yes. 2 Q Do you recall telling the Grand 3 Jury that "the main reason was to have 4 documentation for when under oath testimony 5 would take place?" 6 A I'm sorry, repeat. 7 Q In response to a question as to 8 circumstances that were occurring in the Fall 9 of 1997, you said the main reason was to have 10 documentation for when the under oath 11 testimony would take place. 12 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection to the 13 question on the basis that it's beyond the 14 scope of permissible discovery in this case 15 pursuant to Judge Lamberth's Order. 16 I'll instruct you not to answer the 17 question because it could potentially violate 18 your Fifth Amendment privilege in its 19 self-incrimination. 20 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 21 Q Do you recall receiving questions 22 from grand jurors concerning your plans to 693 1 write a book? 2 A Vaguely. 3 Q Do you recall stating in response 4 to one question, "it was not, it was not what 5 we were looking to do, and when I say that 6 with all candor, I, when I threw away the 7 book idea in August of 1996, I was completely 8 finished with it?" 9 A What is your question? 10 Q Do you recall that testimony? 11 A Yes, I do. 12 Q Was that accurate testimony? 13 A Yes, it was. 14 MR. GAFFNEY: I ask the court 15 reporter to mark this as Exhibit 11. 16 (Tripp Deposition Exhibit No. 11 17 was marked for identification.) 18 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 19 Q Can you identify this document for 20 me Ms. Tripp? 21 A Repeat, please. 22 Q Can you identify this document for 694 1 me? 2 A Can I identify it? 3 Q Yeah. 4 A I'm assuming you can, you handed it 5 to me. 6 Q Have you ever seen this document 7 before? 8 A I have no independent recollection 9 of seeing it. I'm looking at it. It says 10 it's the Goldberg tape, so I'm assuming 11 that's accurate. 12 Q It appears to be a transcript of 13 the tape between you and Ms. Goldberg; is 14 that correct? 15 A It appears to be. 16 Q Just to state for the record, it's 17 several pages long and it's a transcript, a 18 number of pages indicated on each page; is 19 that fair to say? 20 A The one that you have provided me 21 has four pages of transcript, four 8-by-10 22 Xerox pages of transcript and the rest 695 1 appears to be indexed verbiage. 2 Q Let's look at the first page. 3 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Let me just ask 4 for a point of clarification, I'm sorry to 5 interrupt you, does this document, to the 6 best of your knowledge, Mr. Gaffney, derive 7 from the Lewinsky investigation? 8 MR. GAFFNEY: I'm not under oath 9 here and I'm not being questioned. 10 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I understand. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: You have a duty as an 12 officer of the Court to identify what it is 13 you're providing Ms. Tripp. 14 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 15 Q Ms. Tripp, I'm going to tell you 16 that this is what appears to be a transcript 17 of a conversation between you and 18 Ms. Goldberg. 19 Let's look at the first page, do 20 you see it's broken down into six pages. It 21 says page 2 on the middle of the first page, 22 and there's a statement from you to 696 1 Ms. Goldberg, "I thought about you at various 2 times over the last year and I wanted to -- 3 to chat with you about something that is 4 completely ridiculous." Do you see that? 5 MR. ZACCAGNINI: For the record, I 6 want to object to this line of questioning as 7 being beyond the scope of permission 8 discovery. 9 MR. GAFFNEY: Your objection is 10 noted. 11 THE WITNESS: I see that. 12 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 13 Q Do you recall making that 14 statement? 15 A No. 16 Q Does that refresh your recollection 17 whether this is a conversation you had with 18 Ms. Goldberg in late September 1997? 19 A It appears to be, so. 20 Q Over the next, when I say pages, 21 I'm talking about the subdivided pages that 22 appear on this, on each page. 697 1 A Correct. 2 Q Over the next several pages you are 3 talking about conveying information to her 4 about Monica Lewinsky, correct? 5 A Correct. 6 Q Let's look at the second page, it 7 says page 9 at the bottom left; do you see 8 that? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Right at the end, after you've been 11 telling this information to Ms. Goldberg, she 12 asks you a question, correct? 13 A After I had been what? 14 Q You had been talking for some time, 15 correct? 16 A Eight pages of transcript. 17 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'm sorry, page 9, 18 is there a specific question you're referring 19 to? 20 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 21 Q Well, you have been talking with 22 her for some time about Monica Lewinsky, 698 1 correct? 2 A What do you mean by some time? 3 Q Well, for eight and a half pages of 4 transcript, correct? 5 A This conversation purports to be 6 eight pages of dialogue prior to the point 7 that you're asking me about. 8 Q Right, okay. You have conveyed to 9 her certain information about Monica Lewinsky 10 in this conversation, correct? 11 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Again, I'm going 12 to reiterate my prior objection to this line 13 of questioning because I think the judge is 14 very clear in his order that anything related 15 to the Lewinsky investigation is beyond the 16 scope of permissible discovery in this case. 17 MR. GAFFNEY: He said nothing in 18 his order about my ability to take 19 cross-examination on issues of credibility 20 and bias. 21 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Well, I understand 22 that, but if they effect, in my opinion, if 699 1 they derive from the Lewinsky investigation, 2 I beg to differ. 3 MR. GAFFNEY: Well, we have a -- 4 we'll agree to disagree. 5 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 6 Q Do you see Ms. Goldberg asks you, 7 "how do you see using this information, in a 8 book, or..." do you see that? 9 A What line, please? 10 Q That's line 24 on page 9. 11 A Uh-huh. 12 Q Could you read what is attributed 13 to you there in response to her question? 14 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Why don't you go 15 ahead and read it first, before you -- 16 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 17 Q Could you read it aloud, please. 18 THE WITNESS: You said read it 19 first? 20 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Yes, read it to 21 yourself, first. 22 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 700 1 Q I'd real it aloud. You are saying 2 here, "I don't know. I mean, I was working 3 on, right now my, my attorney has virtually 4 all my files, but prior to that I just 5 scrubbed the whole Maggie product and started 6 from scratch and had to come up with a whole 7 different spin." Correct, that's what that 8 says? 9 A That's what that says. 10 Q Maggie there is referring to Maggie 11 Gallagher, correct? 12 A Apparently. 13 Q It was sort of less, you know, on 14 this, you know, Morris County hick who 15 happened upon the White House and left all 16 that out and just started with, you know, a 17 basic introduction about how it all began and 18 a very brief portion on the, on the Bush 19 White House, and then, boom, right into the 20 stars and the Oval and the Clinton White 21 House; do you see that? 22 A I see that. 701 1 Q Didn't you testify to the Grand 2 Jury that when you scrapped the Maggie 3 Gallagher project, the book proposal was 4 over? 5 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'll object to the 6 question as beyond the scope of permissible 7 discovery in this case and instruct my client 8 not to respond. 9 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 10 Q Are you going to accept your 11 attorney's instruction on that? Are you 12 going to accept -- 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Just word of advice 14 here, if you guys are conferring, you may be 15 being recording right now and it's 16 attorney-client. 17 MR. ZACCAGNINI: That's okay. We 18 understand that. The question again, was? 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you laughing 20 again, Ms. Weismann? I don't find it 21 appropriate to laugh in the middle of this 22 deposition. 702 1 MR. GAFFNEY: Could you read the 2 question back, please? 3 MS. WEISMANN: I don't find the 4 mischaracterization of our conduct as 5 appropriate either, Mr. Klayman. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: It's not a 7 mischaracterization. I'll swear to it under 8 oath. I'll take a polygraph. 9 MR. GILLIGAN: We know that. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Will you? 11 MR. GAFFNEY: I would ask that this 12 exchange not count against my time. 13 (The reporter read the record as 14 requested.) 15 THE WITNESS: Yes, I did. 16 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 17 Q How come you didn't tell them that 18 you started from scratch? 19 A Because that would not have been 20 true. 21 Q So you're not telling the truth to 22 Ms. Goldberg here? 703 1 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection. 2 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 3 Q Are you telling the truth to 4 Ms. Goldberg here? 5 THE WITNESS: What's the objection? 6 MR. ZACCAGNINI: No, you can go 7 ahead and answer it. 8 THE WITNESS: I can answer it. 9 Ms. Goldberg and I had come to a parting of 10 the ways in August of '94 -- no, I'm sorry, 11 August of '96. We had not parted on 12 particularly good terms at that time. She 13 did not appreciate my position. I didn't 14 appreciate hers. 15 The last words Lucianne Goldberg 16 said to me in August of '94 were to the 17 effect who do you think you are, the Queen of 18 England. 19 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 20 Q Right, I'm aware of all of that. 21 A So, this interchange, I believe, if 22 I'm not mistaken, looks to me like it 704 1 represents my first contact with Lucianne 2 after that 14 month or whatever it was 3 period. 4 Q Correct, that's what it appears to 5 be. 6 A What I represented to Lucianne that 7 day and what was true are two separate 8 things. 9 Q So you're saying you didn't start 10 from scratch at that point? 11 A I have done nothing and had done 12 nothing at that point. I still to this day 13 have done nothing. 14 Q So you weren't telling Ms. Goldberg 15 the truth there; is that fair to say? 16 A That's correct. 17 Q Let's go down a little further, 18 you're talking about that same page, page 10, 19 line 22, Ms. Goldberg, now, have you 20 considered going to Isikoff and going off the 21 record with him. You respond, "Oh, I could 22 do that in a minute, but then he'd write the 705 1 book, or he'd write the whole thing." 2 Ms. Goldberg says, "No, he has only 3 a certain amount of space." You say, "Oh, 4 no, he's working on a book deal. He's going 5 to do all the President's women kind of 6 thing." 7 Then Ms. Goldberg responds, "Well 8 then we make a deal with Isikoff, that's 9 here's -- here's the information we'll give 10 to you. Here's just enough documentation for 11 you to do the story, but -- but the rest of 12 it belongs to Linda, because she's doing a 13 book. He would have to honor that if he 14 wanted the story." You respond, "yeah, I 15 would think so." 16 How come you didn't tell 17 Ms. Goldberg at this point that you weren't 18 interested in a book? 19 A Ms. Goldberg is a literary agent. 20 I needed Ms. Goldberg's help and I spoke to 21 her the way I thought would be most effective 22 as a means to an end. 706 1 Q But, you're conveying to her that 2 you're interested in doing a book, correct? 3 A Yes, that's right. 4 Q That's false? 5 A Is it false? 6 Q Were you falsely conveying to her 7 that you were interested in doing a book? 8 A Yeah, I had no interest in writing 9 a book at that time. My interest was in 10 getting this information in the public 11 domain, preferably with as little risk to me 12 as possible. Preferably without my name 13 being attached to it. 14 Q Then she goes on to say, this is at 15 line 18, "But now you are ready to go public 16 because you weren't a year ago and she's 17 referring to your deciding not to go forward 18 with the Gallagher proposal." Correct? 19 A Apparently. 20 Q "I'm so fed up, I have watched this 21 girl, I can tell you that she calls at 22 least 10 times a day." 707 1 So you're now ready, at least 2 you're conveying to Ms. Goldberg that you're 3 ready to come forward, correct? 4 A I was ready for the information to 5 come out, absolutely, yes. 6 Q Let's go to the next page, it says 7 page 13 at the top, line 15. 8 A Excuse me, just one moment. I'm 9 sorry, could you repeat? 10 Q Next page, it says page 13 at the 11 top. 12 A Uh-huh. 13 Q Line 15, and you say, but look, 14 it's like, once again I am less hesitant than 15 I was before. I'm ready to, and then she 16 says, well, that's good. Yeah, that is 17 really good. It took a long time. 18 A Uh-huh. 19 Q Then you talk about what might 20 happen if you lose your job and that you're 21 going to get a job. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. 708 1 THE WITNESS: Just read it. 2 MR. ZACCAGNINI: We are just 3 waiting for the question. 4 THE WITNESS: Somewhere. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: The documents speaks 6 for itself, I just want to make it clear. 7 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 8 Q So you're telling her at this point 9 that you're -- 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Wait, wait, let me 11 make my objection. 12 MR. GAFFNEY: I'm sorry, go ahead. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: The document speaks 14 for itself. I'm just going to make it clear 15 that my continuing objection as to matters of 16 substance remains. 17 MR. GAFFNEY: Okay. 18 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 19 Q Now, you're saying you're less 20 hesitant than you were before to write a 21 book, right? 22 A No, what I'm saying is I'm less 709 1 hesitant -- well you can interpret this any 2 way you'd like. 3 What I'm telling you for the record 4 and under oath is I was less hesitant about 5 it surfacing, knowing that my name may be 6 associated with it, and I was ready to go 7 forward. 8 Q So you're saying this has nothing 9 to do with writing a book? 10 A No, we were even discussing going 11 to the tabloids. We didn't know about the 12 Independent Counsel option at that point. 13 Anything to get the heinous material out in 14 the public domain was the intent. 15 Q You talked about going to the 16 tabloids so you could make money off of it, 17 correct? 18 A No, I don't think you understand. 19 Q Well, you could go to Mr. Isikoff, 20 right, but you also discussed the tabloids? 21 A I had gone to Mr. Isikoff, at 22 length. Off the record, he had everything, 710 1 so that was completely disingenuous, the 2 portion that said he could write his book. 3 Q Let's go to page 15. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't think she's 5 finished, Mr. Gaffney. 6 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 7 Q Are you finished? 8 A No. 9 Q Okay, please finish. 10 A If this were about writing a book, 11 had that been the intent all along, a money 12 maker, as you seem to think, then that's 13 precisely where I would have gone 14 January 12th of '98. 15 I think that the last year has been 16 veritable proof that the story has great 17 interest. Had that been my goal, I think I 18 could have done it. 19 That was not my goal. My goal was 20 to get it out in to the public domain and to 21 expose the behavior and to ensure that I was 22 not going to be called the liar under oath. 711 1 I've done that. 2 Q Let's look at page 15. 3 Ms. Goldberg says at line I think it's 5, 4 it's hard to read. "I'm very interested in 5 this, needless to say, I mean." And you say, 6 "I'm glad." 7 She says, "My tabloid heart beats 8 loud." You laugh. She says, "I think, just 9 hearing it for the first time and without 10 talking to you again, I think we can make a 11 deal with -- with Isikoff that protects you 12 totally, that gets the surface of this out 13 and lets you stand back and fill in the 14 pieces and I get you a publisher that will be 15 happy to do that." 16 Do you see that? 17 A I do. 18 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Is there a 19 question? 20 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 21 Q You respond, "All right, well let's 22 talk again." 712 1 Now you didn't tell her that at 2 this point I'm not interested in doing a 3 book? You didn't tell her that, did you? 4 A We met with Isikoff. We talked to 5 Isikoff. We never discussed a book with a 6 publisher. 7 Q But you discussed it with 8 Ms. Goldberg? 9 A Oh, yeah. This is my first 10 conversation with Lucianne. 11 Q There's nowhere so far that you've 12 expressed any disinterest in writing a book 13 in this conversation? 14 A In this conversation, no. 15 Q Because you were interested in 16 writing a book? 17 A No, I was not. I was interested in 18 getting the information in to the public 19 domain any way possible. 20 If it meant a book and it meant 21 that that was the only way to do it, I was 22 certainly not -- I didn't have any problem 713 1 with that. I was ready to come forward. 2 Q All right, let's turn to the next 3 page, page 19 says at the top, and you ask at 4 line 15, "So, all right, so what, what, what 5 is my next move, what do I do?" 6 She responds, "Your next move is 7 to -- for the next 24 hours, think about 8 going to Isikoff and write a list of demands 9 you want to talk to him." 10 Now she's talking about demands of 11 what he can publish and what you can say for 12 your book, right? 13 A I don't remember this portion at 14 all. I know I never wrote a list. 15 Q Now I just have, I'm curious, if 16 all you needed to do was get this information 17 out and you weren't interested in writing a 18 book, then why did you need Ms. Goldberg's 19 help? 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, compound. 21 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, I don't 22 understand. 714 1 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 2 Q Why did you need Ms. Goldberg's 3 help? 4 A I didn't know where to go. Could I 5 have gone to the FBI after what I had seen; 6 doubtful. Could I have gone to the Justice 7 Department after what I had seen with Waco, 8 doubtful. Could I have gone to the Howard 9 County Police, I guess so. Who would have 10 believed me? 11 Q You could have gone to Mike 12 Isikoff, you already had conversations 13 with -- 14 A I had gone to Mike Isikoff. 15 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Don't argue with 16 the witness. Please ask her a question, I 17 would appreciate that very much. 18 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 19 Q You could have just laid all this 20 out to Mike Isikoff, correct? 21 A Could I have? 22 Q In fact, she asked you -- 715 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Wait, is there a 2 question pending? 3 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 4 Q You could have given it all to Mike 5 Isikoff, correct? 6 A I did give it to Mike Isikoff. 7 Q But not at this time, correct? 8 A No, not at that time. 9 Q In fact, going back to the second 10 page of the transcript on page 10, 11 Ms. Goldberg says, now had you considered 12 going to Isikoff and going off the record 13 with him. You say, oh, I could do that in a 14 minute, but then he'd write the book? 15 A Yes, that's what I said. However, 16 if you talk to Mike Isikoff, you'll find that 17 as of March 24th of '97, I had already given 18 him much of this information. The only thing 19 I did not do was name Ms. Lewinsky. 20 It was very important to me that 21 the truth get out. It was very important to 22 me that I be protected. 716 1 Q Now you began taping Ms. Lewinsky 2 after this conversation; is that correct? 3 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection. Again, 4 we'll reiterate the prior objection, that is, 5 it's beyond the scope of admissible discovery 6 in this case. 7 I'll instruct you not to respond to 8 the question on the basis that it is beyond 9 the scope of permissible discovery pursuant 10 to Judge Lamberth's Order and that it may 11 tend to incriminate you in violation of your 12 Fifth Amendment right in its 13 self-incrimination. 14 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 15 Q Are you going to accept your 16 attorney's instruction? 17 A Yes, I am. 18 Q Now, there's 20 pages of transcript 19 in this condensed, in these four pages; is 20 that correct? 21 A Well, I think we need to clarify 22 what you mean by 20 pages. Each page looks 717 1 to be about, what, under 20 lines each, so. 2 Q Well, on the fourth page of the 3 transcript there's something at the bottom 4 that says page 21 but it's only got a few 5 lines on it; is that correct? 6 A I'm sorry, at the bottom of? 7 Q The last page of transcript. Do 8 you see that, it says page 21 and it only 9 goes a few lines? 10 A Yes, uh-huh, yeah. 11 Q Now there's no reference in 12 this 20-page conversation to Robert Bennett, 13 the President's attorney, in the Paula Jones 14 case, is there? 15 A I haven't read the whole 16 transcript. I can't tell you. 17 Q Would you be surprised if there was 18 no reference to Mr. Bennett in this? 19 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection. 20 THE WITNESS: No. Lucianne 21 Goldberg leaked to the New York Post in 22 August of '97, following Mr. Bennett's 718 1 accusation that I was a liar in Newsweek, 2 essentially the story, the fact that I was a 3 witness to a sexual assault by the President 4 perpetrated on Kathleen Willey. She was 5 completely cognizant of what motivated me. 6 She wrote the article for the New York Post. 7 If that's not in this conversation, 8 it's in another conversation. She knew 9 precisely why I was ready to come forward. 10 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 11 Q Did you see any mention in this 12 about your being subpoenaed as a witness in 13 the Paula Jones case? 14 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection. 15 THE WITNESS: I think I just 16 answered that. 17 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 18 Q When Ms. Goldberg repeatedly 19 proposed a book deal -- 20 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection to the 21 characterization. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 719 1 Q Linda's book and I get you a 2 publisher, how come you never told her that 3 this was not about doing a book? 4 A Was there ever a book proposal 5 in 1997? 6 Q There was discussion of it. 7 A Was there a book proposal? Was 8 there ever anything submitted? 9 Q Well when she was discussing it, 10 how come you didn't tell her that, boy, this 11 isn't about a book? 12 A Let me repeat for at least the 13 fifth time, I didn't care at this point how 14 it got out. I was ready to risk everything, 15 my job, my livelihood, my economic future to 16 get this out. So, you may not like the 17 answer. That's the answer. 18 Q But there was a discussion of a 19 book proposal, correct? 20 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection, asked 21 and answered. 22 THE WITNESS: No, there -- 720 1 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Asked and 2 answered. 3 MR. GAFFNEY: Let's mark this as 4 Exhibit 12. 5 (Tripp Deposition Exhibit No. 12 6 was marked for identification.) 7 MR. GAFFNEY: Off the record, 8 please. 9 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record 10 at 4:35 p.m. 11 (Recess) 12 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On the record 13 at 4:54 p.m. 14 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 15 Q Ms. Tripp, can you identify what 16 has been marked as Exhibit 12? 17 A I can identify that it says 18 Goldberg tape 002. 19 Q Have you ever seen this document 20 before? 21 A I don't know. 22 Q You don't recall? 721 1 A I don't know that I've seen this 2 document before. 3 Q Do you recall seeing it before? 4 A Does I don't know not mean I don't 5 recall. 6 MR. ZACCAGNINI: The question has 7 been answered. Next question, please. 8 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 9 Q Let's look at, I'll represent to 10 you that this is what appears to be a 11 transcript of a telephone or a conversation 12 between you and Lucianne Goldberg and that it 13 post dates the one we just looked at. 14 A Okay. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I don't accept 16 that. What proof do you have? 17 MR. GAFFNEY: You don't need to 18 accept that, Mr. Klayman. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: We say there's an 20 objection on the record and I hope you're 21 right, Mr. Gaffney, for your benefit. 22 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 722 1 Q Line 11 on page 4 Ms. Goldberg said 2 "Well, let's look at the very broad picture, 3 the big picture as to what is good for you. 4 What is good for you, um, in the -- in the 5 fullness of time, is a book, not, not just 6 about this thing that you're doing now." You 7 respond "Right." Do you see that? 8 A I do. 9 Q How come you didn't tell 10 Ms. Goldberg that this is not about a book? 11 A I was still speaking to Lucianne, 12 obviously disingenuously, about anything that 13 had to do with a literary venture with 14 Lucianne. I had alienated Lucianne the year 15 before, walked out on a proposal, in her 16 mind, queried a deal that she thought would 17 be extremely economically beneficial and now 18 I'm approaching her, yet again. 19 Q Are you finished? 20 A No. It's quite clear to me based 21 on these conversations that I approached her 22 with the accurate information and with less 723 1 accurate depiction of what I wanted to do 2 with it, at least in the beginning. 3 Q So to the extent these transcripts 4 seem to reflect you acquiescing in her 5 interest in a book, then you're misleading 6 Ms. Goldberg? 7 A That's too simplistic. What I was 8 trying to do was get this information out one 9 way or another. If it meant a book, I was 10 happy to do a book. 11 Q Well, that's what she's talking 12 about. 13 A My same concerns applied as they 14 had the year prior to this. In other words, 15 a year prior to this I withdrew with 16 trepidation, I was fearful. I was not ready 17 to go forward. 18 Fast forward to this time period 19 of 1997, I was disgusted, I was fed up, I 20 wanted the public to be aware of what I was 21 witnessing and Ms. Goldberg was about the 22 only person I could think about to go to. 724 1 To the extent that she's a literary 2 agent, we talked about various ways to 3 publish. It was not about a book. It was 4 about getting the information out. If it had 5 been about a book, we would have done a book 6 proposal and there would have been one at a 7 publisher or at least a bid for one in 8 January, not a trip to the Independent 9 Counsel. 10 Q Let's look at the next page where 11 it says, starting on sort of halfway down the 12 transcript page 8, line 7 you say "I've got 13 to tell you, I think, I think this has put 14 you in a sore spot and I apologize for that." 15 A I'm sorry, what line? 16 Q Line 7; do you see that? 17 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Page 8, line 7. 18 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 19 Q Page 8. You've put her in a sore 20 spot? 21 A I see that. I'm not sure what that 22 means at this point, but go ahead. 725 1 Q She says, "Oh, no. It's a delicate 2 thing." And you say, "I know" "It's not --" 3 and you say, "I know, but --" Then 4 Ms. Goldberg says "It's not a sore spot, but 5 I am looking, I mean, my -- my ultimate goal 6 in this is that this information will become 7 public with you being protected -- and you 8 being able to, and you're being able to step 9 forward and tell an extraordinary story, I 10 mean, a story that will -- " 11 And then she says, "When he says, 12 no..." and "he" I'll tell you refers to 13 Mr. Isikoff, "When he says no -- in this 14 climate no publisher will touch it, I'm 15 sorry. But the attitude now in publishing is 16 "We don't give" -- I mean even the liberals 17 that were pro Clinton. "We don't give a 18 shit." Nobody cares about him anymore. We 19 just -- we need something that opens our eyes 20 about him. We don't care about protecting 21 him. We don't care if he lives or dies." 22 You say "Yeah." She says, "They 726 1 are so fed up." Referring obviously to the 2 book publishers. You say "Well." She says 3 "The climate is extremely good for this kind 4 of information." 5 You say "I would -- I would have 6 absolutely no qualms about going that way." 7 Do you see that? 8 A Yes, I do. 9 Q How come you didn't tell her that, 10 I'm sorry, but I'm not interested in writing 11 a book, that this isn't about a book? 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Asked and answered 13 about 100 times. 14 THE WITNESS: It was about getting 15 the information out any way possible. 16 Again, if I had had confidence in 17 the two agencies that happen to be 18 represented here at this table, based on my 19 experience, I didn't feel that there was a 20 place I could go to. 21 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 22 Q You told the Grand Jury that this 727 1 had nothing to do with a book proposal, 2 correct? 3 A That's correct, it had to do with 4 getting the information out, if it -- 5 Q But this is all talk about a book 6 proposal? 7 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection, asked 8 and answered. 9 THE WITNESS: Nice try. 10 MR. GAFFNEY: I'd like to have this 11 marked as Exhibit 13. 12 (Tripp Deposition Exhibit No. 13 13 was marked for identification.) 14 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 15 Q I'm going to represent to you, 16 Ms. Tripp, that this is a transcript from 17 Meet The Press, July 12, 1998, that I printed 18 off of Nexus, I believe, and it is an episode 19 of Meet The Press on which your Counsel, 20 Mr. Zaccagnini, appeared. 21 I'd ask you to turn to the page 22 that says page 5 at the top right-hand 728 1 corner. 2 A I'm going to read up until page 5, 3 if you don't mind. 4 MR. GAFFNEY: Okay, let's go off 5 the record, please. 6 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I object to going 7 off the record. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Can I get a proffer 9 here? Are we off the record? 10 MR. GAFFNEY: Yes. 11 MR. ZACCAGNINI: No, we are not, I 12 objected. 13 MR. GAFFNEY: Well then I'll ask my 14 question. 15 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 16 Q Let's look at the bottom of page 4. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Can you let her read 18 it? 19 MR. GAFFNEY: Well, there's no need 20 to read through the entire transcript and I 21 don't want to burn up all my time. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: If you show her a 729 1 document -- 2 MR. GAFFNEY: She's not entitled to 3 read it. 4 MR. ZACCAGNINI: She's entitled to 5 read the entire document if you put the 6 entire document in front of her. 7 MR. GAFFNEY: Let's mark this as 8 Deposition Exhibit 13, please. 9 MR. ZACCAGNINI: There's already a 10 Deposition Exhibit 13 already. 11 MR. GAFFNEY: Let's mark this as 12 Exhibit 14. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Is it something 14 different than we just gave? 15 MR. GAFFNEY: No, but it allows me 16 to get to the points quicker without burning 17 up 20 minutes. 18 MR. DITKOFF: What pages are 19 Exhibit 14? 20 MR. GAFFNEY: Page 4 and 5. 21 (Tripp Deposition Exhibit No. 14 22 was marked for identification.) 730 1 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 2 Q I'd ask you to take a look at 3 what's been marked as Exhibit 14, two-thirds 4 down the page Mr. Russert is asking a 5 question to Mr. Zaccagnini that concludes, 6 talking about you, wasn't her motivation in 7 talking to Monica Lewinsky to help contribute 8 to that book? 9 Mr. Zaccagnini responds, absolutely 10 not, explains some of the circumstances of 11 your dealings with Ms. Goldberg in the Summer 12 of '96. 13 Then he says the last paragraph on 14 the page, so Linda in August of 1996 decided 15 to stop the book proposal. There was no 16 mention in that book proposal of Monica 17 Lewinsky, despite the fact that Linda had 18 known Monica for four or five months. 19 That paragraph goes on for another 20 sentence. Then he says in October of 1997 21 when Linda reaches out to Lucianne for advice 22 on what had become a rather untenable 731 1 situation, again, there's no discussion at 2 any time, subsequent to October 1997, of any 3 book deal that relates to Monica Lewinsky. 4 To say that Linda contemplated a 5 book deal about Monica Lewinsky, about what 6 she knew about Monica Lewinsky is absolutely 7 untrue; do you see that? 8 A I can't put this in context with 9 you talking and me trying to read, but I can, 10 I can respond to what you just read. 11 Q That's not an accurate statement by 12 Mr. Zaccagnini, is it? 13 A You need to ask Mr. Zaccagnini. 14 Q I'm asking you whether your lawyer 15 made an accurate statement? 16 A Mr. Zaccagnini made an accurate 17 statement as it pertains to the truth and the 18 validity of the book deal idea. There was no 19 book deal, it was not about a book. 20 Q But he didn't say that, he said to 21 say that Linda contemplated a book deal about 22 Monica Lewinsky, about what she knew about 732 1 Monica Lewinsky is absolutely untrue. That's 2 not a true statement? 3 A Oh, absolutely it's true. I did 4 not contemplate a book at that point. I 5 contemplated getting the story out. 6 Q But your conversations -- 7 A There was never a book deal. 8 Q Your conversations with 9 Ms. Goldberg clearly indicated contemplating 10 a book deal? 11 A I have testified -- 12 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection to your 13 characterization. 14 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 15 Q You may answer the question. 16 A I have testified that at no time 17 was this about a book deal in 1997. Had it 18 been, there would have been a book proposal, 19 I promise you. 20 Q What was all this conversation with 21 Ms. Goldberg, then? 22 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection, asked 733 1 and answered. 2 THE WITNESS: I answered that 3 several times to your -- obviously not to 4 your satisfaction. I can't help you. 5 MR. GAFFNEY: What are we on, 15, 6 could you mark that as Exhibit 15, please. 7 (Tripp Deposition Exhibit No. 15 8 was marked for identification.) 9 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 10 Q I'd ask you to take a look at what 11 has been marked as Exhibit 15, which I can 12 represent to you is a 302 report provided by 13 the Office of Independent Counsel and 14 materials submitted to Congress concerning an 15 interview with Ms. Goldberg. 16 On page 2 of this she says, third 17 full paragraph, she says Goldberg advised 18 that the book, again, talking about the 19 Maggie Gallagher proposal. 20 A I'm sorry, what paragraph? 21 Q The third full paragraph. 22 A Okay. 734 1 Q Advised that the book was about the 2 Travel Office "Filegate", and other things 3 going on. 4 Do you know whether she was 5 speaking accurately? 6 A I think I've testified that I'm not 7 sure what the book proposal included. I know 8 that the Travel Office was included and I 9 know there was a chapter entitled all the 10 President's women. 11 Q Let's look at the next paragraph. 12 The third sentence, Goldberg advised that 13 money was not discussed with Tripp, no ball 14 park figures were given. 15 A Where was this? 16 Q The next paragraph. 17 A Before she could submit the 18 proposal, is that the paragraph? 19 Q Yes. 20 A Before she could submit the 21 proposal. 22 Q It's not that sentence. 735 1 A I'm sorry? 2 Q Not the next sentence, it's the 3 sentence after that. Do you see that? 4 A I'm reading it. 5 Q Do you see the sentence that -- 6 A Can you let me read what I'm 7 reading? 8 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Wait one second, 9 just wait and give her an opportunity to read 10 it. 11 THE WITNESS: You make me have to 12 start over each time you interrupt. 13 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 14 Q Have you finished reading that 15 paragraph? 16 A No. Okay, I've finished reading 17 that paragraph. 18 Q Do you see where Ms. Goldberg says 19 that, or the 302 states Goldberg advised that 20 money was not discussed with Tripp, no ball 21 park figures were given; is that an accurate 22 statement? 736 1 A I'm sorry, I don't even know what 2 this refers to. Does this refer to '96? 3 Q Yes, it does. 4 A I'm sorry, the question again? 5 Q She states that money was not 6 discussed with you "ball park figures were 7 given." 8 A This has to do with the June '96 9 endeavor? 10 Q Yes. 11 A Your question is is that accurate? 12 Q Is that accurate? 13 A That is not my recollection. 14 Q You have a clear recollection of 15 talking about money? 16 A I have a different recollection 17 than this. 18 Q Is your recollection clear about 19 talking about money? 20 A Clear enough to where I disagree 21 with this recollection. 22 What's the point? 737 1 Q Is it fair to say that during your 2 conversations with Ms. Lewinsky that you 3 misled her on a number of occasions? 4 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection. Again, 5 this is beyond the scope of permissible 6 discovery in this case as instructed by Judge 7 Lamberth and I'll advise you not to answer 8 that question. 9 MR. DITKOFF: Objection. 10 MR. GAFFNEY: On the basis of 11 relevance? 12 MR. ZACCAGNINI: On the basis of 13 relevance and it's beyond the scope of Judge 14 Lamberth's Order. 15 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 16 Q Do you recall in one of your 17 conversations with Ms. Lewinsky she says, I 18 keep hearing these double clicks, and you 19 responded, that's my gum? 20 MR. ZACCAGNINI: For the record, 21 I've advised my client not to respond to any 22 questions relating to any conversations with 738 1 Ms. Lewinsky. They are clearly beyond the 2 scope of admissible discovery in this case as 3 outlined by Judge Lamberth's Order, and we'll 4 leave it at that. 5 MR. GAFFNEY: I think I'm entitled 6 to -- 7 MR. DITKOFF: I join that 8 objection. 9 MR. GAFFNEY: I just think I'm 10 entitled to ask questions that go to 11 credibility and bias. 12 MR. ZACCAGNINI: The Judge has 13 clearly indicated what you can't go into, and 14 what you can't go into is the Lewinsky 15 investigation. 16 I've given you wide breadth and 17 allowed you to discuss questions that arise 18 from documents that arise from the Lewinsky 19 investigation, but I'm not going to allow you 20 to question my client as it relates to any 21 conversations that she had with Ms. Lewinsky. 22 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 739 1 Q Do you recall telling investigators 2 from Mr. Starr's office that the only time 3 you leaked White House information was on the 4 resignation of Web Hubbell? 5 A During my time at the White House, 6 yes, that's true. 7 Q But after you left the White House, 8 you leaked information about the White House 9 to Tony Snow; is that right? 10 A Oh, I'm afraid that we are not 11 speaking the same terminology here. 12 Q How do you mean? 13 A You're talking a leak in terms of 14 for dissemination within the media? What are 15 you talking about? 16 Q Yes. 17 A The only one that I consider a leak 18 was the Wolf Blitzer leak about Web Hubbell's 19 imminent resignation, which I think was a 20 couple hours prior to it being made public. 21 Q But you had a number of 22 conversations with Tony Snow while he was a 740 1 journalist, correct? 2 A Tony Snow as a friend, yes. He 3 never used that information at any time. 4 Q Are you aware that he wrote a 5 series of articles about the FBI files matter 6 after the news broke? 7 A After? 8 Q After the news about their 9 discovery? 10 A I don't believe any of the 11 information Tony used in his column came from 12 me. 13 Q So it is your belief that when you 14 talked to Mr. Snow, it was not for use in 15 anything he might write? 16 A It was completely off the record 17 and it was as friends, not as a journalist. 18 Q When you say completely off the 19 record, was it your understanding that none 20 of this would make it in to the newspaper? 21 A It was completely off the record, 22 so. 741 1 Q I'm asking you about your 2 understanding of what off the record means. 3 Is it your understanding that none 4 of that would make it into the newspaper or 5 just that it wouldn't be attributed to you? 6 A No, actually at the time it was, my 7 understanding of the conversations was that 8 this happened to be conversations between 9 friends, not for publication, at any time. 10 MR. GAFFNEY: Could you mark that 11 as Exhibit 16. 12 (Tripp Deposition Exhibit No. 16 13 was marked for identification.) 14 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 15 Q Could you take a look at what's 16 been marked as Exhibit 16 and tell me if you 17 can identify that. 18 Have you seen that document before? 19 A I'll read it and let you know. 20 Q Well, we probably don't have enough 21 time left in my cross-examination for you to 22 read the whole thing. 742 1 A Then don't ask me a question. 2 MR. ZACCAGNINI: She's not 3 answering questions from this document until 4 she's read the entire document. 5 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 6 Q Well I'm going to ask her a 7 question concerning page 3759, which is the 8 only, actually, the only question I'm going 9 to ask you concerns the last paragraph on 10 page 3758. 11 A So you don't want me to read any of 12 this? 13 Q No, I'm not going to ask you any 14 questions about it. 15 I will represent to you that this 16 document comes from materials that the Office 17 of Independent Counsel supplied to Congress. 18 A What paragraph? 19 Q The last paragraph on page 3758, if 20 you don't mind reading that and tell me when 21 you're done reading it. 22 A The last paragraph you said, 743 1 correct? 2 Q Yes. Begins with Tripp advised her 3 attorney. 4 A Uh-huh, I see it. What is your 5 question? 6 Q I just want to ask you about the 7 last sentence that starts on 3758, it says, 8 Tripp advised she did not realize recording 9 her own telephone conversations with Lewinsky 10 was a violation of State law at the time she 11 did it. 12 That's not an accurate statement, 13 is it? 14 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'll object to the 15 question and advise my client not to respond 16 to it based upon the fact that it is beyond 17 the scope of admissible discovery in this 18 case as identified by Judge Lamberth's Order. 19 Additionally, as previously 20 indicated, and I will again advise my client 21 not to respond to this question on the basis 22 that it may tend to incriminate her and 744 1 violate her Fifth Amendment rights. 2 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 3 Q Are you going to accept your 4 attorney's instruction on that? 5 A I am. 6 MR. DITKOFF: I join in the 7 objection as to scope. 8 MR. GAFFNEY: Why don't we go off 9 the record and I'll take a look to see if 10 I've got anything else. 11 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record 12 at 5:17 p.m. 13 (Recess) 14 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On the record at 15 5:24 p.m. 16 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 17 Q I just have a few more questions, 18 Ms. Tripp. 19 A All right. 20 Q Are you familiar with Monica 21 Lewinsky's testimony to the Grand Jury at 22 all? 745 1 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Have you had a 2 chance to review her testimony? 3 THE WITNESS: I have not reviewed 4 her testimony. 5 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 6 Q Have you read press accounts of it? 7 A Actually, the only thing that 8 stands out in terms of Grand Jury testimony 9 is I hate Linda Tripp. 10 Q But you, possible you've read other 11 press accounts; is that correct? 12 A Press accounts, certainly, yes. 13 Q Do you recall that she testified 14 that when, here's what she said, when I was 15 first apprehend, she, meaning Linda, was, she 16 said they had done the same thing to her and 17 she tried to hug me; do you recall that? 18 A Do I recall what? 19 Q That Ms. Lewinsky testified to 20 that? 21 A No. 22 Q Did you say that to her? 746 1 MR. DITKOFF: Objection, beyond the 2 scope. 3 THE WITNESS: Say what? 4 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 5 Q They had done the same thing to 6 you? 7 A What are you talking about? 8 Q When Ms. Lewinsky was apprehended 9 at the Ritz Carlton Hotel. 10 A Oh, I'm sorry, I wasn't following 11 you. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Object to the use of 13 the word "apprehended." 14 MR. GAFFNEY: Well, I'm using 15 Ms. Lewinsky's words. 16 MR. DITKOFF: Same objection. 17 THE WITNESS: I don't recall a 18 conversation with Monica too much at the Ritz 19 Carlton. 20 I recall running in to Monica after 21 I left and she left to go shopping, I think. 22 She passed me, my returning from Nordstrom's, 747 1 having made a phone call to arrange for a 2 ride, she came by me and said thanks a lot. 3 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 4 Q Did you tell her that the Office of 5 Independent Counsel had done the same thing 6 to you? 7 A I may have. I may have. 8 MR. DITKOFF: Objection, outside 9 the scope. 10 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 11 Q That wouldn't have been truthful, 12 right? 13 A No, that would not have been 14 truthful, clearly not. I went to them. 15 Q Did Monica Lewinsky ask you to take 16 notes of her conversations? 17 MR. DITKOFF: Objection. 18 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'll object, 19 again, and I'll state my objection -- 20 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 21 Q You realize that she says that she 22 never asked you to take notes? 748 1 MR. ZACCAGNINI: One question at a 2 time. 3 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 4 Q Are you aware that -- 5 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'm going to 6 object to the question and I want to put my 7 objection on the record. 8 MR. GAFFNEY: I'll withdraw the 9 question so we'll ask another question. 10 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 11 Q Are you aware that Monica Lewinsky 12 has testified that she never asked you to 13 take notes of her conversations with you? 14 A I'm aware of that. 15 Q Is she testifying truthfully? 16 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'll object. I'll 17 put my objection on the record. Judge 18 Lamberth has made it very clear that there's 19 to be no discovery in this case as it relates 20 to the Lewinsky investigation. 21 MR. GAFFNEY: Let me ask the 22 question then. 749 1 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 2 Q You testified -- 3 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'm going to put 4 my objection on the record, unless you're 5 going to withdraw it. 6 MR. GAFFNEY: I'm going to withdraw 7 the question. 8 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 9 Q You testified that Monica Lewinsky 10 did ask you to take notes of your 11 conversations with her, correct? 12 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection. I'll 13 put my objection on the record. 14 MR. DITKOFF: I join the objection. 15 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Judge Lamberth has 16 made it very clear in his Order that there 17 will be no permissible discovery in this case 18 as it relates to the Lewinsky investigation. 19 Therefore, it's clearly beyond the scope of 20 permissible discovery. 21 I'll advise my client not to 22 respond to the question for that reason and 750 1 for the reason that a response to that 2 question may tend to incriminate her and 3 violate her constitutional right to the Fifth 4 Amendment right against self-incrimination. 5 MR. DITKOFF: I'll join in that 6 scope. 7 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 8 Q Are you going to follow that 9 instruction? 10 A I'm sorry? 11 MR. DITKOFF: I join in the 12 objections going to the scope of the 13 discovery. 14 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 15 Q Are you going to follow your 16 attorney's instruction? 17 A Yes, I am. 18 Q Have you been requested by the 19 Office of Independent Counsel not to write a 20 book for the time being. They've made no 21 request to you not to write a book? 22 A No. 751 1 MR. GAFFNEY: That's all I have, 2 Ms. Tripp, thank you. 3 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR DEFENDANT 4 NUSSBAUM 5 BY MR. MAZUR: 6 Q Mrs. Tripp, in case you've 7 forgotten, my name is Robert Mazur and I 8 represent Mr. Nussbaum. 9 A I have not forgotten. 10 Q I just have a very few questions to 11 ask you. 12 First place, is it correct that you 13 regarded Mr. Nussbaum when you worked for him 14 as a person of the utmost integrity? 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading, 16 lacks foundation. 17 THE WITNESS: I believe that's a 18 quote. 19 BY MR. MAZUR: 20 Q That is what you, that is how you 21 regarded him, correct? 22 A That's right. 752 1 Q With respect to the period after 2 Mr. Foster's death and prior to the 3 interviews of the White House counsel staff 4 people by the Park Police and the other 5 investigators, is it correct that 6 Mr. Nussbaum had a conversation with you and 7 the others about how you were to conduct 8 yourselves in those interviews? 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, compound 10 question, lacks foundation. 11 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Do you understand 12 the question, Ms. Tripp? 13 THE WITNESS: Yes, I understand the 14 question. 15 It's my recollection now, in 1999, 16 that that meeting took place in Bernie's 17 office in the immediate aftermath of 18 Mr. Foster's death and I believe that it was 19 Steve Neuwirth and Cliff Sloan who did a lot 20 of the talking in that meeting. 21 BY MR. MAZUR: 22 Q Is it correct that Mr. Nussbaum, 753 1 himself, advised you and the others to be 2 truthful and forthright in response to the 3 questions that you were asked? 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, vague. 5 THE WITNESS: The guidance that I 6 remember specifically was to answer questions 7 truthfully, to not offer information and to 8 not speculate. 9 BY MR. MAZUR: 10 Q Is it correct that there were no 11 areas that you were not to get into? 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading. 13 THE WITNESS: I think I'd prefer to 14 just stay with my statement that I just made. 15 BY MR. MAZUR: 16 Q I'm going to, I'd like to read to 17 you from part of the transcript of your 18 August 1, 1995, testimony before the Senate, 19 either, Banking Committee or Whitewater 20 Committee or whatever it was at that time. 21 A Right. 22 Q These were questions by 754 1 Mr. Ben-Veniste. 2 A Okay. 3 Q All right, and to the best of your 4 recollection, was it Mr. Nussbaum who gave 5 these sorts of guidelines or pointers? Was 6 it Mr. Nussbaum? Ms. Tripp, it is my 7 recollection that it was Mr. Nussbaum in the 8 presence of others, yes. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me object. Do 10 you have a copy of that for everybody, can we 11 get a copy? 12 MR. MAZUR: No, I don't. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Well we have no way 14 of knowing what testimony that is or whether 15 you're reading it accurately. 16 MR. MAZUR: Well, you can look over 17 my shoulder. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: I'd prefer not to. 19 MR. MAZUR: It will just waste 20 time, if there's any issue about the 21 correctness of this, I'm sure you'll raise it 22 on redirect. 755 1 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'll stipulate to 2 the correctness the transcript for the 3 record. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Well we won't, but if 5 there's a problem, we'll deal with it later. 6 BY MR. MAZUR: 7 Q Mr. Ben-Veniste, "and what do you 8 recall having been said." Ms. Tripp, "I 9 recall being called in to a meeting at which 10 time Bernie gave rather specific guidance and 11 that was to be truthful, forthright in 12 response to questions posed by any of the 13 investigative services that would possibly be 14 coming to see us, to answer the questions 15 asked and not to embellish or speculate." 16 Mr. Ben-Veniste, "Kind of like your 17 own attorneys would have given you advice in 18 coming here today, I take it?" Ms. Tripp, 19 "Yes, sir." 20 Mr. Ben-Veniste, "And with respect 21 to what Mr. Nussbaum told you or what anyone 22 else may have mentioned to you in connection 756 1 with being interviewed by the police, did 2 anyone suggest to you that you ought to 3 withhold any information." Ms. Tripp, "No, 4 sir, that was never suggested to me." 5 Then the same question was put to 6 Ms. Gorham. 7 Mr. Ben-Veniste, "Did anyone 8 suggest there was just, there was certain 9 areas that you should not get into or you 10 should not respond to." 11 Ms. Tripp, "No, sir, only in regard 12 that we should not speculate." 13 Same question put to Ms. Gorham. 14 Mr. Ben-Veniste, "So that if I understand, 15 the advice was to be truthful in your 16 responses and to cooperate to the best of 17 your ability with the investigators. " 18 Ms. Tripp, "Yes, sir, that's accurate." 19 Do you recall being asked those 20 questions and giving those answers? 21 A That sounds like an accurate 22 transcript, yes. 757 1 Q Were you attempting to be truthful 2 there in responding to Mr. Ben-Veniste's 3 questions to the best of your ability and 4 your recollection as of the time you were 5 giving it? 6 A Yes, correct. 7 MR. MAZUR: Nothing further. 8 MR. GILLIGAN: What time do you 9 have, Mr. Holley? 10 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 5:34 p.m. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: What time was used up 12 on the defendant's? 13 THE WITNESS: We have 23 minutes 14 left, if anyone cares. 15 MS. WEISMANN: Can we go off the 16 record. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Sure, let's go off 18 the record. 19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record 20 at 5:34 p.m. 21 (Recess) 22 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On the record at 758 1 5:39 p.m. 2 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFFS 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Ms. Tripp, you testified this 5 morning that you recognized the name of the 6 Washington Post editor who, according to your 7 experience, had been giving heads up to Bruce 8 Lindsay in the White House about Washington 9 Post scandal stories to be someone by the 10 name of Downing? 11 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 12 MS. SHAPIRO: Join the objection. 13 THE WITNESS: I think what I 14 testified to is that when asked the question 15 originally, in reviewing certain names, when 16 you said Downing, that was a familiar 17 response to me because of the thought process 18 I had had at the time when it was occurring 19 with the television personality. 20 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 21 Q Did you mean Leonard Downey? 22 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form. 759 1 THE WITNESS: I believe that's what 2 I meant, yes, but that's not the television 3 personality to whom I referred. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q The television personality being 6 Morton Downey? 7 A I think so. 8 Q Do you say that there was perhaps 9 another editor who called Bruce Lindsay 10 frequently with heads up? 11 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form. 12 THE WITNESS: I believe what I said 13 was that there were two, which I was aware, I 14 don't remember the second one's name. 15 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 16 Q Does the name Bill Hamilton ring a 17 bell? 18 A I can't tell you, I don't remember. 19 Q Have you ever provided testimony on 20 Filegate before a Grand Jury? 21 A Filegate? 22 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 760 1 THE WITNESS: I don't know if I 2 referenced anything having to do with the 3 illegal obtaining of the FBI files during my 4 Grand Jury testimony in 1997. 5 I may well have in passing in a 6 period when I was trying to make the Grand 7 Jury understand why I felt threatened, but 8 I'm not real sure. I haven't reviewed my 9 testimony. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Do you recollect the Office of 12 Independent Counsel ever asking you a 13 question about Filegate during Grand Jury 14 proceedings? 15 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 16 THE WITNESS: No, actually what I 17 remember is my getting on the record, my 18 rationale, my feelings, my beliefs as to why 19 I felt threatened and why I felt that the 20 behavior was unscrupulous and needed to be 21 exposed. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 761 1 Q But did the Office of Independent 2 Counsel ever ask you any questions about 3 Filegate before a Grand Jury? 4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 5 THE WITNESS: I recall no such 6 questions. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Did any of the grand jurors ever 9 ask you a question about Filegate? 10 A Again, I reiterate that I'm not, I 11 don't have an independent recollection right 12 now of exactly who asked what and how I 13 responded. 14 I do know that I tried to make the 15 Grand Jury understand certain events that had 16 occurred during my tenure at the White House 17 and thereafter that made me fearful, and so 18 they may well have asked questions during 19 that time period. 20 Q So it was very brief testimony? 21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 22 THE WITNESS: Actually it was very 762 1 brief, because anything, and I say testimony 2 that had to do with anything other than the 3 Lewinsky matter was very brief because there 4 was a grand juror who had to recuse herself 5 whenever I attempted to testify about the 6 Travel Office, for instance. So, we never 7 seemed to return to that line of questioning. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q So except for your very brief 10 reference in the context of threats, there 11 was no real substantive development of the 12 issues you testified here during this 13 deposition? 14 A Or any other, no. 15 Q The answer is no? 16 A Yeah, or any other that I recall 17 and the answer is no. 18 Q Has Ken Starr, himself, ever asked 19 you any questions about Filegate? 20 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 21 THE WITNESS: I've spoken on many 22 occasions with Judge Starr and I don't recall 763 1 the subject of files ever coming up. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q You previously offered testimony 4 this morning about Betsy Pond and you 5 testified, correct me if I'm wrong, that she 6 told you that she would not testify 7 truthfully if asked to about matters that she 8 saw in the White House Counsel's Office, 9 correct? 10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 11 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, 12 mischaracterizes the testimony. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q You can respond. 15 A I think I need to be plain, 16 Ms. Pond represented to me how she thought 17 questions relating to certain issues should 18 be answered, how she intended to answer, if 19 deposed or under oath or if asked by law 20 enforcement, and suggested how I could do the 21 same. 22 Q Are there things about Ms. Pond's 764 1 past in terms of her employment in the White 2 House Counsel's Office which, if revealed, 3 might cause Ms. Pond concern? 4 I'm not asking for the substance, 5 I'm just asking to identify that. 6 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection, form. 7 THE WITNESS: Well I'm not sure, 8 could you repeat the, I'm unclear. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q What I'm saying is are there things 11 about Ms. Pond that she wouldn't want 12 revealed that you know of, publicly? 13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 14 THE WITNESS: That's, I don't know 15 how to answer that. 16 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Well it's an 17 opinion question. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q I'm trying to keep within the 20 parameters of Court Orders. I don't want to 21 ask you what it is. 22 But are there sensitive things 765 1 about Ms. Pond that she doesn't want out 2 there publicly? 3 A I don't know what Betsy wants or 4 doesn't want, so I'm not comfortable 5 answering it that way. 6 It was my understanding that the 7 Judge precluded me from testifying on the 8 record for issues concerning, personnel 9 issues concerning Debra Gorham and Betsy Pond 10 and I'm really not comfortable getting into a 11 lot more than that. 12 Q I'm not asking you that, I don't 13 want to ask you that, at this time, without 14 asking the Court for guidance. 15 But I want to ask you the question 16 is: Is there something about Ms. Pond's life 17 experience that if someone threatened her in 18 revealing that could influence her testimony, 19 based upon your experience in dealing with 20 her? 21 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, calls for 22 speculation, based on facts not in evidence. 766 1 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'll join the 2 objection as it relates to speculation. But, 3 Ms. Tripp, you can answer the question if you 4 understand it. 5 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I think I 6 understand it. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q I'm not asking you to speculate, 9 based upon your understanding of her psyche. 10 MR. GILLIGAN: Same objection. 11 THE WITNESS: I don't understand 12 her psyche at all, and I'm not a psychologist 13 or a psychiatrist. 14 I will tell you that she 15 represented to me ways in which she would 16 testify that would not be truthful; and based 17 on my conversations with her, I understood it 18 to be for various reasons, not least of which 19 was a loyalty to Mrs. Clinton, over time, and 20 a complete willingness to protect her 21 livelihood. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 767 1 Q What do you mean by a complete 2 willingness to protect her livelihood? 3 Elucidate. 4 A I'm sorry? 5 Q Tell us what she said about that. 6 A She anticipated that she would 7 continue to be employed by the Clinton 8 Administration at least as long as the 9 President was President and even intimated to 10 me that following that, she intended to find 11 work with one or more of the principals of 12 this Administration. 13 So I think she was pretty heavily 14 committed to her way of thinking. 15 Q Did you take that to mean that she 16 would, therefore, not testify in any way 17 negative to this Administration because it 18 could affect future employment opportunities? 19 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, calls for 20 speculation. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q You can respond, based on your 768 1 belief. 2 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 3 THE WITNESS: I don't have to 4 testify based on my belief. I'm testifying 5 that that is what she said to me. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Do you know where Ms. Pond is 8 currently employed? 9 A I've been told, and I was not 10 surprised to hear, that she is still with the 11 Administration. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: I just need to take 13 one minute off the record to get a document 14 to speed things up. 15 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record 16 at 5:49 p.m. 17 (Recess) 18 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On the record at 19 5:50 p.m. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q I'm going to show you some pages 22 from a document, majority document 769 1 production, Hearings Special Committee to 2 Investigate Whitewater Development 3 Corporation and Related Matters of the 4 Committee on Banking, Housing and Urban 5 Affairs, United States Senate, First Session, 6 Volume 19, Document Production in Response to 7 Senate Resolution 120. 8 I turn your attention to pages 595 9 to 710, and to speed this thing along, 10 because you want to get out of here at 11 around 6:00, I don't have the documents 12 prepared to give everyone a copy. If they'd 13 like to look at it, you're welcome to do it, 14 as occurred with Mr. Mazur. 15 But pages 595 to 710, are these the 16 billing records which your Counsel showed you 17 this morning? 18 A These are the pages that 19 Mr. Zaccagnini showed me this morning. 20 Q Do you recognize those pages to be 21 of the same configuration of the documents 22 that you believe to be the Rose billing law 770 1 firm records that you saw in Vince Foster's 2 safe? 3 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 4 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 5 THE WITNESS: This is the first 6 time I'm looking at them with my glasses. 7 When Mr. Zaccagnini showed me, I didn't have 8 my glasses on. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Well, take your time. 11 A They look similar to me. I 12 remember saying that I don't recall this. I 13 recall a fold over on the one end, a third of 14 it, roughly. 15 Q Well, those documents are put in 16 book form. 17 A I just know that it was horizontal 18 and folded at one end. 19 Q Is there anything about those 20 billing records which lead you to believe 21 that they are the same as what you saw in 22 Vince Foster's safe, other than the fact that 771 1 they are horizontal? 2 A I don't remember the words being 3 this tiny, or my eyes have gotten worse. No. 4 I mean just looking at it right now, I can't 5 even read it. 6 Q Well, those are not to scale, they 7 are reduced to the size of the book. 8 A Right, but I'm saying the print, 9 itself, which obviously would also be smaller 10 in this reproduction, but what I'm telling 11 you is I can't read the words, so. 12 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q All right, well we'll come back to 15 that next time. 16 A I mean I can make out client 17 billing. 18 Q When Mr. Zaccagnini showed them to 19 you this morning, did you believe them to be 20 the same as what you had seen in the safe? 21 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 22 MR. GILLIGAN: Join it. Object to 772 1 the relevance, as well. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q You can respond. 4 A I told him at that time that it 5 looked like a smaller version of what I had 6 seen. 7 Q Now you testified this morning 8 about an order which had been issued by 9 Hillary Clinton that you saw in writing to 10 William Kennedy with regard to the firing of 11 the Travel Office employees. 12 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Can you recollect any other orders 15 that Hillary Clinton issued to anyone in the 16 White House Counsel's Office? 17 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 18 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 19 THE WITNESS: Well first of all I 20 don't think that if it was an order it was 21 directed to Bill Kennedy. Bill Kennedy's 22 name was on the memo, as was Vince Foster's, 773 1 and I even believe there was a third name 2 that I'm not sure, so I'm not going to 3 testify to that. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Let me stop you on that. Do you 6 know who the order was issued to? 7 A No, all I can tell you is that on 8 this memo in the upper right-hand corner was 9 this handwritten notation. 10 Q The only names on the document were 11 Mr. Kennedy and Mr. Foster? 12 A I think I just testified I believe 13 there might have been a third, but I don't 14 remember for sure, so I'd rather just say for 15 sure I saw those two names. 16 Q So other than those two names and 17 perhaps a third, there was no one else that 18 you know of who this order may have been 19 directed towards? 20 A No. 21 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 774 1 Q Now, do you know of any other 2 orders that Mrs. Clinton issued to the White 3 House Counsel's Office or anyone else during 4 the time that you worked in the White House? 5 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 6 THE WITNESS: That's not an area 7 that I have given any thought to, so let me 8 think about that. Nothing comes to mind 9 right away. 10 I think it's worth the caveat that 11 Mrs. Clinton was adjacent to our office and 12 in our office frequently, and so there was 13 quite a bit of interaction and so to testify 14 to whether or not, I think if you mean orders 15 only as opposed to instruction or guidance, I 16 can answer now, but if you mean any kind of 17 guidance or instruction, I'd need to think 18 about it. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Was it your understanding that 21 Mrs. Clinton was in the office just paying 22 personal visits on a frequent basis or did 775 1 she come in from time to time on matters 2 related to White House operations? 3 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q You can respond. 6 A I'm not saying that she didn't come 7 in on personal business, I'm sure that's 8 possible, but the times that I was aware was 9 certainly business and was something that Deb 10 Gorham talked about frequently. 11 Q What, specifically? 12 A In fact, Debra Gorham ended up, 13 coincidentally or ironically on the same day 14 that Mr. Foster died, going to get her notary 15 public paperwork because she was doing so 16 much notary public work for Mrs. Clinton. 17 Q What specifically did Deb Gorham 18 say in terms of Mrs. Clinton's coming in to 19 the office on business matters? 20 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 21 THE WITNESS: It would depend on 22 the issue. She, you know, oh, it's this or 776 1 oh, it's that, depending on what the issue 2 was. 3 You know, it could be, at one time 4 I remember it was her taxes. Another time it 5 was blind trust. Another time it had to do 6 with Travel Office. Another time it had to 7 do with the aftermath of Mr. Foster's death. 8 Those are just off the top of my 9 head, so it was frequent and it was not a 10 secret. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Those are just a few examples? 13 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 14 THE WITNESS: They come to mind 15 right away, I mean. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q If we are talking examples during 18 the time you worked in the White House 19 Counsel's Office, are we talking tens of 20 examples? 21 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 22 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the 777 1 vagueness. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Roughly speaking -- 4 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to form. 5 THE WITNESS: No, I'm not getting 6 into that, Mr. Klayman. I can tell you that 7 she was in there relatively frequently. It 8 was a back and forth kind of thing, far more 9 with Mr. Foster, and so after his death, less 10 so, but certainly she still came in to see 11 Mr. Nussbaum. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm going to read to 13 you a portion of Mr. William Kennedy's 14 deposition and we'll put this in front of you 15 and I'll ask that this be marked as the next 16 exhibit, what exhibit is that, 17? 17 (Tripp Deposition Exhibit No. 17 18 was marked for identification.) 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q This is Mr. William Kennedy's 21 deposition taken October 15, 1998, a day that 22 will live in infamy. 778 1 A Where are we? What page do you 2 want us to look at? 3 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Have you said what 4 page, Mr. Klayman? 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Yes, it's page 70. It's on the top 7 right-hand corner, line 6. I'm asking the 8 question of Mr. Kennedy, "During the time 9 that you were at the White House, did you 10 ever have any contact, written or oral, with 11 Hillary Rodham Clinton over matters other 12 than just personal matters." 13 The answer, "No, sir, not that I 14 recall. I do not recall reporting to her on 15 official business. I mean, Hillary is a 16 friend of mine who I know and I saw her 17 socially, but I did not report to her on 18 official matters." 19 Question, "I didn't ask whether you 20 reported, did you ever discuss with her 21 anything dealing with official matters." 22 Answer, "I did not." Question, 779 1 "Never." Answer, "No, sir." Question, "Did 2 you ever discuss with any member of her staff 3 any matter concerning official matters?" 4 Answer, "I am certain that there 5 were inquiries from members of her staff 6 about people she was interested in the 7 clearance process, where they stood in the 8 process and things of that nature. I can't 9 remember specifics, but I know there were 10 such inquiries." 11 Question, "And those inquiries were 12 made in writing?" 13 Answer, "No, sir. Most of the time 14 they were telephone calls." 15 Question, "And who in the ordinary 16 course would call you about them?" 17 Answer, "I'm sorry, I can't recall. 18 I would have been -- any number of people. I 19 simply can't recall, but probably Maggie 20 Williams or whoever was the Deputy Chief of 21 Staff at that point in time." 22 Is Mr. Kennedy's statement accurate 780 1 based on your knowledge? 2 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the 3 compound nature of the question. 4 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 5 of the question. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Let me break it down. Is it 8 correct for Mr. Kennedy to say that 9 Mrs. Clinton only contacted him on personal 10 matters? 11 A Well, I don't know that that's what 12 he said. What he said was that he saw her 13 socially, but he did not report to her on 14 official matters. That was not even remotely 15 what I observed, unless -- 16 Q Why was that not remotely what -- 17 A May I finish? 18 Q Yes, sure. 19 A Unless he socialized with her very 20 frequently during duty hours, along with Neil 21 Eggleston and Steve Neuwirth. 22 Q In fact, the memorandum which you 781 1 saw from Mrs. Clinton concerning the Travel 2 Office firings, that wasn't a personal 3 communication, was it? 4 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection, form. 5 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to, join. 6 THE WITNESS: It was on official 7 White House letterhead memorandum. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q You did see Mrs. Clinton from time 10 to time discuss with Mr. Kennedy matters 11 dealing with official business? 12 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 13 THE WITNESS: Well, I want to be 14 careful how I say this. I saw Mr. Kennedy 15 frequently go into Mrs. Clinton's office, 16 accompanied often by Steve Neuwirth, 17 sometimes Neil Eggleston, stay in there 18 behind closed doors for some time and then 19 come out. 20 I don't know that I would be 21 willing to say under oath that, you know, 22 that this was official or not. To me, it was 782 1 my impression that it was official. These 2 people didn't generally waste the First 3 Lady's time, so. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Going back to Betsy Pond, and 6 correct me if I'm wrong, was it your 7 testimony this morning that she went in to 8 Vince Foster's office to look for a suicide 9 note? 10 A My testimony was that is what she 11 represented to me that she did. 12 Q Did she tell you whether she found 13 such a suicide note or not? 14 A She said she did not. 15 Q Did anyone ever tell you that they 16 found a suicide note in Foster's office? 17 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the 18 relevance. 19 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: You raised it, not 21 me. 22 MR. GILLIGAN: I never raised that. 783 1 THE WITNESS: Could you repeat 2 that? 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Did anyone other than Betsy Pond 5 ever discuss a suicide note with you of Vince 6 Foster? 7 MR. GILLIGAN: Same objection. 8 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 9 THE WITNESS: This is all part of 10 the record of the Senate Banking Committee, 11 the Senate Whitewater Committee hearings. 12 There was some discussion about a 13 shredded yellow note, but no, nothing beyond 14 that. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Did anyone ever say what it was? 17 MR. GILLIGAN: Same objection. 18 THE WITNESS: Only, I think only 19 what the public record indicates. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q No, I'm asking did anybody ever 22 tell you that? 784 1 A I don't know that it was ever 2 actually identified as a suicide note. 3 Bernie's words to me at that time when it was 4 discovered was it's so sad, it's just so sad. 5 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Can we take a 6 break, Mr. Klayman? 7 MR. KLAYMAN: We'll adjourn and 8 when can we reconvene this deposition? 9 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Unfortunately, 10 I've got two things pending, obviously. Can 11 we go off the record? 12 MR. GILLIGAN: What's the time. 13 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record 14 at 6:03 p.m. 15 (Recess) 16 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On the record at 17 6:06 p.m. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: We have tentatively 19 set a date of 10 a.m., next Friday, which I 20 believe is the 22nd of January, to reconvene 21 this deposition at this office at Judicial 22 Watch and I would ask Mr. Zaccagnini if there 785 1 are any further documents to be produced that 2 at least a day before we reconvene that 3 deposition we make them available. 4 MR. ZACCAGNINI: My apologies, I'll 5 try to take care of that as soon as tomorrow, 6 which means I'll need some cards. 7 MR. GAFFNEY: I'm not available 8 prior to Wednesday, by the way. 9 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Okay, very good. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, thank you all. 11 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Thank you, very 12 good. 13 (Whereupon, at 6:07 p.m., the 14 deposition of LINDA R. TRIPP was 15 continued.) 16 * * * * * 17 18 19 20 21 22 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA ---------------------------x CARA LESLIE ALEXANDER : et al., : : Plaintiffs, : : v. : No. 96-2163 (RCL) : FEDERAL BUREAU OF : INVESTIGATION et al., : : Defendants. : Volume 4 ---------------------------x Washington, D.C. Friday, January 22, 1999 Continued deposition of LINDA R. TRIPP a witness, recalled for examination by counsel for Defendants, pursuant to notice and agreement of counsel, continuing at approximately 10:17 a.m., at the offices of Judicial Watch, 501 School Street Southwest, Washington, D.C., before Monica A. Voorhees, notary public in and for the District of Columbia, when were present on behalf of the respective parties: 788 1 APPEARANCES: 2 On behalf of Plaintiffs: 3 LARRY KLAYMAN, ESQUIRE TOM FITTON, ESQUIRE 4 Judicial Watch 501 School Street Southwest, Suite 725 5 Washington, D.C. 20024 (202) 646-5172 6 7 On behalf of Defendants Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) and the Executive 8 Office of the President (EOP): 9 ELIZABETH J. SHAPIRO, ESQUIRE JAMES J. GILLIGAN, ESQUIRE 10 PATRICIA COPPOLINO, ESQUIRE Federal Programs Branch 11 Civil Division United States Department of Justice 12 901 E Street Northwest, Room 988 Washington, D.C. 20530 13 (202) 514-5302 14 On behalf of Defendant Federal Bureau of 15 Investigation: 16 JON D. PIFER, ESQUIRE Office of General Counsel 17 Federal Bureau of Investigation 935 Pennsylvania Avenue Northwest 18 Washington, D.C. 20535 (202) 324-9665 19 20 21 22 789 1 APPEARANCES (CONT'D): 2 On behalf of Defendant Hillary Rodham Clinton: 3 PAUL B. GAFFNEY, ESQUIRE Williams & Connolly 4 725 Twelfth Street Northwest Washington, D.C. 20005 5 (202) 434-5000 6 On behalf of Defendant Nussbaum: 7 ROBERT B. MAZUR, ESQUIRE 8 Wachtell Lipton Rosen & Katz 51 West 52nd Street 9 New York, New York 10019-6618 (212) 403-1000 10 11 On behalf of Office of Independent Counsel: 12 JOSEPH M. DITKOFF, ESQUIRE 13 RICHARD C. KILLOUGH, ESQUIRE Office of Independent Counsel 14 1001 Pennsylvania Avenue, Northwest Washington, D.C. 20004 15 (202) 514-8688 16 On behalf of Witness: 17 ANTHONY ZACCAGNINI, ESQUIRE 18 ANTHONY LARDIERI, ESQUIRE Semmes Bowen & Semmes 19 250 West Pratt Street Baltimore, Maryland 21201 20 (410) 385-3935 21 ALSO PRESENT: 22 Sylvanus Holley 790 1 C O N T E N T S 2 EXAMINATION BY: PAGE 3 Counsel for Plaintiffs 791 4 TRIPP DEPOSITION EXHIBITS: 5 No. 18 - First Amended Privilege Log 861 6 7 No. 19 - Book Proposal, Redacted Notes 862 8 * * * * * 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 791 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 Whereupon, 3 LINDA R. TRIPP 4 was recalled as a witness and, having been 5 previously duly sworn, was examined and 6 testified further as follows: 7 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFFS 8 CONTINUED 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Good morning, Ms. Tripp, how are 11 you? 12 A Good morning. Well, thank you. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Is there anyone in 14 this room who has not been attending the 15 first three sessions of this deposition? 16 MS. COPPOLINO: Yes. I'm Patricia 17 Coppolino. I'm with the Department of 18 Justice. I'm here this morning representing 19 the Defense Department. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: What section of the 21 Justice Department are you with? 22 MS. COPPOLINO: I'm with the 792 1 Federal Programs Branch. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Ms. Weismann, who was 3 here during the earlier sessions, is not here 4 today? 5 MS. COPPOLINO: That's correct. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: You're here on her 7 behalf? 8 MS. COPPOLINO: Yes. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Everyone else is the 10 same? 11 MS. SHAPIRO: Ms. Peterson is not 12 here this morning. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Ms. Peterson from the 14 White House Counsel's Office. 15 MS. SHAPIRO: Yes. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Ms. Tripp, it's been said that you 18 were in many places and saw many things in 19 this administration; people, in fact, have 20 mocked you for that. 21 How do you explain the fact that 22 you've observed the things that you've 793 1 testified to in this lawsuit? 2 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form. 3 THE WITNESS: I can only say that I 4 worked at the White House. I worked in areas 5 where things continually happened. I didn't, 6 certainly didn't create any of the so-called 7 scandals. I was, however, there to witness 8 them. 9 I think it's important to note that 10 this Administration at the White House and 11 beyond continued to promote me and to place 12 me in increasingly sensitive positions where 13 I would be exposed to various occurrences 14 within the West Wing of the White House. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Was there something about your 17 position as executive assistant that gave you 18 access to the things that you had observed? 19 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection, form. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q You can respond. 22 A I don't know that it was written in 794 1 a job description, per se, but clearly my 2 proximity, if nothing else, allowed me to be 3 witness to various incidents that occurred. 4 I think that there was an element of trust 5 that clearly went along with the title. 6 Q What were the duties and 7 responsibilities as executive assistant to 8 Bernard Nussbaum? 9 A Well, I think they strayed somewhat 10 from what was portrayed to me when the 11 position was first offered, because 12 ultimately it was a multi-task sort of 13 jack-of-all-trades position, frankly. 14 It was not necessarily what had 15 been, as I said, portrayed when I was first 16 offered the position. 17 But it involved, I think, a 18 portion, confidential assistant to 19 Mr. Nussbaum, originator of non-legal 20 correspondence, staff liaison with the senior 21 staff, press liaison when required for the 22 Counsel's Office, spokesperson, on occasion, 795 1 for Mr. Nussbaum. 2 I did not keep his diary. I did 3 not keep his calendar. To the extent that 4 all of us contributed to phone answering, I 5 certainly did that. I supervised the West 6 Wing staff. 7 Q What comprised the West Wing staff? 8 A That was Bernie's secretary, Betsy 9 Pond, as we have spoken of before. Debra 10 Gorham, Vince Foster's secretary, as well. 11 Q Who was that, again? 12 A Debra Gorham. At various times 13 other staff assistants and volunteers. I can 14 name them, if you'd like. Some of the names 15 escape me at this point. 16 Q As part of your duties and 17 responsibilities, you were in constant 18 proximity to the lawyers and support staff 19 that worked in the White House Counsel's 20 Office? 21 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, leading. 22 THE WITNESS: Well, I was in daily 796 1 contact certainly, yes. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Were there any offices in the White 4 House Counsel's Office that you were 5 prohibited from entering? 6 A Prohibited? 7 Q Yes. 8 A No. 9 Q Were there offices that were 10 routinely locked during the day? 11 A Not until Mr. Foster's body was 12 discovered, no. Prior to that, I was not 13 aware of any offices being locked during the 14 day. 15 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to the 16 foundation. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Were there areas in the White House 19 Counsel's Office that were off limits to 20 White House personnel? 21 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 22 the question. 797 1 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure I 2 understand the question. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q When you worked there? Where 5 various people could not go? 6 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the 7 vagueness, lack of foundation. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q You can respond. 10 A I'm afraid I don't understand. 11 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Do you understand? 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Well, were there places that any of 14 the office staff were told, look, don't sit 15 at somebody's desk, or anything like that? 16 A I don't know what you mean, 17 exactly. I mean we certainly would not 18 have -- White House staff, Counsel's Office 19 staff, sitting at other counsel member's 20 staff? 21 Q For instance, were you allowed to 22 go to another secretary's desk and use his or 798 1 her computer, if necessary? 2 A Oh, certainly. I don't recall any 3 restriction in that regard. 4 Q Did there come a point in time when 5 you worked in the White House Counsel's 6 Office where you felt under scrutiny or 7 threatened in any way? 8 A Definitely. 9 Q When did that happen? 10 A I'm not certain of the timing. I 11 had written an op ed piece actually in 12 support of the senior staff and the President 13 and the First Lady at the White House during 14 the, what I considered to be the escalation 15 of the Whitewater press frenzy, December '93 16 time frame, I believe, a rather impassioned 17 plea for understanding and a better, a fairer 18 addressing of these issues where these people 19 were concerned based on what I perceived my 20 observations to be. 21 I had felt strongly about this, but 22 over time, I began to see things in a 799 1 different light. It was precisely during 2 this time that I began to see things in a 3 different light that I also started feeling 4 somewhat endangered, somehow that this wasn't 5 smart to question, to raise issues, that 6 perhaps these ways I had of asking questions, 7 perhaps this was being observed and not 8 appreciated, watched. 9 Q Was there a turning point when you 10 felt as if you were not appreciated and 11 watched, some event in particular? 12 A When, there came a time when, and 13 I'm sorry, I'm not certain when this was, 14 when we were approached by I believe the FBI, 15 perhaps at that time with the OIC, where they 16 came to ask questions, where they asked for a 17 tour of Vince Foster's office and sort of an 18 explanation as to what had happened that day. 19 It was at that time that I 20 discussed with Bernie Nussbaum the need to 21 have an attorney. At that time there were, I 22 don't know that there was anybody left in the 800 1 Counsel's Office who had been there during 2 Mr. Foster's tenure, other than myself. 3 So after that time I felt more and 4 more fearful. Joel Klein had given me reason 5 to believe that I needed to be careful in 6 what I said. 7 This would have had to have been 8 between, right around the same time that 9 Bernie was being fired, or had resigned, 10 ostensibly. 11 Q Was there something that Mr. Klein 12 said in particular that caused you concern? 13 A He said so many different things. 14 This was a time when Joel became very much a 15 player in my life. 16 He -- do I remember verbatim, no. 17 I remember questions about my attorney. He 18 wanted to ensure that it was an attorney, 19 frankly, that he approved of. I was 20 uncomfortable with that, but I really didn't 21 feel I had a choice in choosing another 22 attorney at that time. 801 1 Q Give us the gist of what you 2 discussed with him, not verbatim, but just 3 the gist, other than the fact that he wanted 4 to approve your attorney? 5 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q You can respond. 8 A Well, he didn't say he wanted to 9 approve my attorney, it was just ensuring, I 10 think, that it was an Administration friendly 11 attorney. 12 Gee, what did he say. He said 13 things like, well, I would question things 14 and so he would say, well, I don't think you 15 need to address this, this hasn't even been 16 asked, or you don't really know that for a 17 fact, do you. Are you offering -- he asked 18 me if I was offering information to the 19 agents who would come by or whether I was 20 just merely answering questions. 21 It just became, in my opinion, a 22 hostile environment. 802 1 Q Anyone in addition to Mr. Klein 2 that you felt was watching you or was hostile 3 or adverse in any way? 4 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form. 5 THE WITNESS: I noticed a change in 6 demeanor with my relationship as it pertained 7 to, a relationship that I felt I had 8 cultivated over time with Bruce Lindsay. I 9 felt less than welcome in the presence of the 10 First Lady, and that had changed over time. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q How long -- 13 A Just a sense of, a turn-about in 14 the way I was treated by those people with 15 whom I had worked for some time and had 16 developed, I thought, at least a congenial, 17 respectful working relationship. 18 Q What did you notice with regard to 19 Bruce Lindsay in terms of the change? 20 A Well following my conversation with 21 Bruce Lindsay in which I expressed concerns 22 about Joel Klein -- 803 1 Q What specifically did you tell 2 Mr. Lindsay about Mr. Klein? 3 A I told him that I felt that he was 4 sabotaging Bernie Nussbaum, that I felt at 5 every opportunity Joel Klein was using his 6 new position and area of authority as it 7 pertained to the damage control, the 8 Whitewater damage control to undermine 9 Bernie's credibility and to, in effect, point 10 fingers at Mr. Nussbaum. I felt that was 11 wholly unfair, unjustified and disingenuous, 12 because he presented a completely different 13 face to Mr. Nussbaum, in his presence. 14 So there were elements of that 15 behavior on the part of Mr. Klein that I 16 addressed with Mr. Lindsay, on more than one 17 occasion, but I remember one occasion in 18 particular. 19 On this particular occasion I 20 raised my concerns about other things I had 21 witnessed in the White House Counsel's Office 22 over time. 804 1 Q What did you raise? 2 A My concerns about Bill Kennedy. 3 My concerns about files, my 4 concerns about a feeling I had that enemies, 5 real or perceived, were in danger of 6 information coming out in one way or another 7 by the administration. 8 In any event, it was a friendly 9 conversation, but at the end of that 10 conversation, he said talk like that will get 11 you destroyed. You will be destroyed. He 12 said it with a smile. 13 My relationship after that with 14 Bruce Lindsay ceased to exist, frankly. It 15 became not warm, not friendly, changed 16 dramatically. 17 Q When you heard Bruce Lindsay say 18 that with a smile, talk like that will get 19 you destroyed, how did you take that? 20 Destroyed in terms of your career? Did you 21 take it there may be other types of things on 22 the horizon that could get you destroyed? 805 1 What did you feel at that time? 2 A I felt threatened. 3 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, calls for 4 speculation, lack -- 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q You can respond. 7 MR. GILLIGAN: After I finish my 8 objection, please, Mr. Klayman. Objection, 9 calls for speculation, lack of foundation. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q You can respond. 12 MR. ZACCAGNINI: You may answer it. 13 THE WITNESS: I felt threatened. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Did you have a specific type of 16 thought as to how you could be threatened? 17 A I didn't think Bruce Lindsay was 18 going to come at me with an Uzi. I felt that 19 my professional future was at stake, and that 20 I would most likely lose, in any protracted 21 battle. I would be the loser. 22 I also felt, frankly, that perhaps 806 1 an accident would befall me, and I'm not 2 overdramatizing. 3 Q What, if anything, led you to 4 believe that an accident could befall you? 5 MR. GILLIGAN: Same objection. 6 MR. ZACCAGNINI: You may answer. 7 THE WITNESS: Well, I go back to 8 just a sense I had over time and precisely, 9 specific to my recollection right now, is the 10 Jerry Park's incident and the reaction by the 11 senior staff members to that death. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Tell us about that. 14 A I remember Skip Rutherford from the 15 Chief of Staff's office faxing to Bernie a 16 news article that had just appeared 17 apparently in the Little Rock paper having to 18 do with Mr. Park's death and that he had been 19 a, as I recall today, I believe that it 20 referenced Mr. Park as being a security, head 21 of security for Clinton/Gore '92, and about 22 the issue surrounding his death is the best I 807 1 can recall right now. 2 Q Was there anything else that led 3 you to believe that you could have an 4 accident? 5 A It was the way it was handled. It 6 was, again, the same thing as with 7 Mr. Foster. This was, the actual event, 8 itself, would not have been necessarily 9 anything more straightforward than what it 10 appeared to be, it was the way it was 11 handled. 12 It was as though this was a 13 concern, a cover-up, a -- it was the covert 14 way they behaved that made me believe that 15 this was, once again, something to be fearful 16 of. 17 Q Was there anyone in particular that 18 behaved more in a covert way than anyone 19 else? 20 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form, 21 the vagueness, the relevance. 22 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Do you understand 808 1 the question? 2 THE WITNESS: Yes. I remember that 3 it was not -- again, not to defend 4 Mr. Nussbaum's honor, but he seemed 5 completely confused by this, didn't seem to 6 see any reason to react or to, he was kind of 7 like, oh. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Who were the ones that were looking 10 like they were covering it up, if anyone? 11 MR. GILLIGAN: Same objection. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q You can respond. 14 A Well, I remember Bill Kennedy, 15 Marcia Scott. This seemed to be of great 16 interest to Joel Klein. The very people I 17 had come to be wary of over time, anyway. 18 Q Bruce Lindsay? 19 A Oh, definitely Bruce. 20 Q Have you ever heard of Bruce 21 Lindsay being referred to as the consigliere? 22 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection. 809 1 THE WITNESS: Yes, yes. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Where have you heard that? 4 A Oh, just -- truly only press 5 reports. Seems to fit so well, though. 6 Q Did you tend to view Bruce Lindsay 7 in that way yourself when you worked in the 8 office? 9 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, lack of 10 relevance, form. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q You can respond. 13 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'm going to 14 object to relevance, as well. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q You can respond. 17 A Long before the press identified 18 Mr. Lindsay as being the closest confidante 19 or the closest aide to the President, I had, 20 in my mind certainly from having worked for 21 Mr. Lindsay directly for a couple months 22 early on, had no doubt in my mind that he was 810 1 far beyond anyone else, had more access and 2 certainly was the closest aide to the 3 President, so. 4 Q Did you get the impression based on 5 your experience that it was Lindsay who 6 carried out the wishes of the President? 7 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection, 8 relevance. 9 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, 10 vagueness, relevance, speculation, lack of 11 foundation. 12 THE WITNESS: All I will say in the 13 face of all that legal mumbo-jumbo is that I 14 felt that Mr. Lindsay was the head protector. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Was it your impression that if 17 something was going to happen to you, 18 Mr. Lindsay would be part of it? 19 MR. GILLIGAN: Same objection. 20 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection. I 21 think that we are getting far afield, 22 Mr. Klayman. Calling for a lot of 811 1 speculation. 2 MR. GILLIGAN: Lack of foundation. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q You can respond. I'm asking you 5 for your reaction. 6 Here's someone who said you will be 7 destroyed. Now did you take that to mean 8 that he would play a role, himself? 9 MR. GILLIGAN: Same objections. 10 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Asked and 11 answered. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q You can respond. 14 A I never thought he would come after 15 me with an Uzi. I never thought he 16 personally would take part in anything that 17 might endanger my life. 18 Did I feel that he might somehow 19 have a hand in passing along my name, yes. 20 Q To those who would do those kinds 21 of things to you? 22 A Yes. 812 1 MR. GILLIGAN: Same slew of 2 objections. 3 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Have you ever met Harold Ickes? 6 A Oh, many times. 7 Q Did you ever come into contact with 8 him at the White House? 9 A That's the only way I came into 10 contact with him. 11 Q Right. The reputation of Mr. Ickes 12 in the White House at the time, was he 13 considered to be someone to be feared? 14 A He, once he finally did come on at 15 the White House, and his arrival had been 16 anticipated for many months, he immediately 17 became a part of the White House -- 18 Whitewater damage control group. In fact, I 19 think began to head it at that point. 20 Feared, I don't know. I don't know 21 that we feared him. I didn't fear him. 22 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form 813 1 of the last question, by the way. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q At any time that you worked in the 4 White House did you become aware of reports 5 in the media that he had represented 6 organized crime figures? 7 A Yes. 8 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the 9 relevance. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q How did you become aware of that? 12 A I think for the most part I was 13 aware of it prior to news reports because 14 there had been discussion about his impending 15 arrival since the first term, since the 16 beginning of the first term. 17 We kept hearing that he was having 18 problem with mob ties and he had to clear 19 that up before he could take his appointment. 20 I don't know how true that is. I never 21 followed up on any of that. 22 Q Did that cause you concern in the 814 1 context of the statements made by Mr. Lindsay 2 that you had somebody with reported mob ties 3 in the White House working with the 4 President? 5 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection. 6 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, same 7 objections. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q You can respond. 10 A I'm trying to think back to how I 11 felt at that time. By the time I had heard 12 these revelations about Mr. Ickes and 13 possible connections, I had started, and I 14 emphasize started, to draw my own conclusions 15 about unscrupulous behavior in the White 16 House, so I wasn't actually very surprised. 17 Q In terms of the questions that you 18 were asking to Mr. Klein, you said you asked 19 him certain questions and you later went to 20 talk to Mr. Lindsay and asked him the same 21 questions, they dealt with files and such. 22 A There were many issues I addressed 815 1 with Mr. Klein. 2 Q Give us as much as you can remember 3 about in particular the files issue. 4 A That I addressed with Mr. Lindsay, 5 not with Mr. Klein. 6 Q Let's start with Mr. Klein, what 7 specifically, or generally, whatever you can 8 remember, did you discuss with him? 9 A Oh, goodness. We just -- well 10 actually, many different things, but we 11 finally discussed my removal from the 12 Counsel's Office. It was my feeling after 13 having met with Lloyd Cutler when he was 14 scheduled to replace Mr. Nussbaum that he 15 planned no staff additions or deletions to 16 the West Wing Counsel's Office staff. 17 Within a very short time after his 18 arrival in the West Wing, I felt that his 19 demeanor toward me changed. I did not feel 20 at that time nor do I feel today that I was 21 exhibiting any sort of paranoid reaction. In 22 fact, my removal shortly thereafter seems to 816 1 justify the concerns that I had at that time. 2 Q Tell us specifically, was there 3 anything else you discussed with Klein that 4 you can remember? 5 A I remember just discussing my 6 concerns about his concerns about 7 Mr. Foster's office and the way I answered 8 questions, his concerns about my concerns 9 about Deb Gorham's computer. 10 All his concerns that essentially 11 questioned my loyalty, without saying so, 12 because of issues I had raised and I felt 13 they were bona fide issues of concern. 14 Q Tell us what you can remember that 15 you discussed with Mr. Lindsay, start with 16 the FBI files issue. 17 A I had a very warm, easy 18 relationship with Bruce Lindsay, so I was far 19 more candid with Bruce than I would have 20 been, for instance, with Mr. Klein. I was as 21 candid with Bruce Lindsay as I was at any 22 given time with Mr. Nussbaum. 817 1 I kind of laid it on the table for 2 Bruce, issues of what I considered to be 3 grave concern, thinking that he would be 4 equally concerned. He clearly was not. 5 Q What specifically did you lay on 6 the table with Bruce? 7 A My fears about the files I had 8 witnessed, my fears about the aftermath of 9 Vince Foster's death, the fears I had had as 10 it pertained to Joel Klein's clear attempts 11 to undermine Mr. Nussbaum. The feeling that 12 I had that Joel Klein was disingenuous and 13 that he was, I think I used the term a snake 14 oil salesman, that I felt he was doing a 15 disservice to the First Lady and to the 16 President by the way he operated. 17 I've since come to believe that 18 that was precisely why he was hired, but at 19 the time I thought that they needed to know 20 what I was witnessing with Mr. Klein. 21 Clearly they already knew and didn't mind. 22 Q Do you know whether Mr. Klein was 818 1 hired by Hillary Clinton or not? 2 A He was, actually -- 3 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection, form. 4 THE WITNESS: But he was hired, 5 brought on by Bernie Nussbaum who had 6 recommended him to Hillary. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q How do you know that he was hired 9 by Hillary Clinton? 10 A Because Bernie told me. 11 Q What specifically did he tell you? 12 A I just told you. 13 Q Was there anything more, he was 14 hired by Hillary, Hillary wanted him there? 15 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection, form. 16 THE WITNESS: Yes. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Did you ask where does he come 19 from? 20 A I remember at the time he had said 21 he was a constitutional, as I recall, I 22 believe he said he was a constitutional law 819 1 expert, local office in D.C., something about 2 having clerked for a Supreme Court Justice or 3 something. 4 Q What did you talk to with 5 Mr. Lindsay, specifically about the FBI 6 files? 7 You said you had concerns about 8 what you had seen, what did you relay in 9 terms of the concerns? 10 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q You can respond. 13 A Well I relayed to him what Betsy 14 Pond had said to me, that this was, that 15 these were FBI files, that, you know, I felt 16 that somehow or another the Counsel's Office 17 was using these files, or potentially using 18 these files to arm themselves with ammunition 19 about real or perceived enemies of the 20 Administration, that that struck a cord of 21 fear in me. 22 I brought up the Travel Office. 820 1 Q What about the Travel Office did 2 you bring up? 3 A That I felt that these files had a 4 direct correlation to what ultimately 5 happened to Billy Dale, that that was 6 horrifying to me, and I was completely sure 7 it would be as horrifying to him. 8 I had never felt that Bruce Lindsay 9 was an integral part of the Travel Office 10 debacle, I never really thought. I thought 11 he was above the fray, so to speak. The 12 protector, but not down in the weeds getting 13 his hands dirty. 14 So I thought this would be 15 somewhat -- I thought it would be of interest 16 to Bruce. 17 Q Did you tell Mr. Lindsay what files 18 you had seen of the Travel Office workers and 19 other files that you identified during this 20 deposition? 21 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 22 THE WITNESS: The only thing I 821 1 think I remember saying at all is that I 2 remember seeing Billy Dale's. I said to 3 Bruce Lindsay's, Billy Dale's, as opposed to 4 just being a file with the name Dale on it. 5 Billy Dale's file, Chris Emory's file. 6 I think I may have at that time 7 even said Bill Kennedy's file and that it was 8 odd to me that he was the only Counsel's 9 Office staff member whose file was maintained 10 up there. 11 Q Did you tell him about seeing these 12 files being loaded on to a computer? 13 A All I remember telling him is, 14 again, as it related to Betsy Pond having 15 told me that it was FBI files as she was 16 entering data, so. 17 Q Did you tell him anything about the 18 conversation that you overheard between 19 Mr. Kennedy and Marcia Scott concerning the 20 Democratic National Committee that you've 21 testified to? 22 A I don't recall, I'm sorry. 822 1 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Where did this conversation -- 4 MR. GILLIGAN: Mr. Klayman, before 5 your next question, I just want to lodge a 6 standing objection to this entire line of 7 questioning as beyond the scope of either the 8 direct or cross-examination that has occurred 9 with this witness up until now. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: You can even lodge a 11 sitting objection, if you'd like. 12 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Excuse me one 13 second. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q When, approximately, did this 16 conversation take place? 17 A Well I believe it happened, to the 18 best of my recollection, I think it was just 19 prior to Bernie's resignation, but it was not 20 the only conversation I had with him about 21 this. It seems to me that it had to have 22 been between, very shortly before March 5th 823 1 and through the end of April time frame. I'm 2 just not positive. 3 Q About how many conversations did 4 you have with Bruce Lindsay about this? 5 A Several. 6 Q More than 10? 7 A No, uh-uh. I had a -- two or three 8 with Bruce. One sticks out, as I said, with 9 a greater level of detail. I mean, this was 10 a bigger conversation, a longer conversation. 11 But I also had conversations with 12 Bruce once Joel Klein removed me from the 13 Counsel's Office and suggested I find another 14 position within the White House compound, and 15 asked for his assistance in ensuring that I 16 was placed appropriately elsewhere. 17 Q When did these other conversations 18 take place, approximately? 19 A Well, I believe I moved over to the 20 Old Executive Office Building in May, so it 21 was probably May or thereafter, and again, 22 several conversations culminating in August 824 1 of '94. 2 Q Where did these conversations take 3 place? 4 A Often in his West Wing office. 5 Sometimes in the corridor in the old EOB. 6 Q This conversation that sticks out 7 in your mind, was it longer than the other 8 conversations? 9 A Yes. It was actually I called him 10 and told him I'd like to see him. 11 Q Where did that conversation take 12 place? 13 A That was in his West Wing office. 14 Q When the conversation took place, 15 was anyone present other than you and 16 Mr. Lindsay? 17 A In his office? 18 Q Yes. 19 A No. 20 Q Was the door open or closed? 21 A Open. 22 Q Did you take notes during the 825 1 conversation? 2 A I didn't. 3 Q Did he? 4 A I don't know. I don't remember. 5 Q Do you know whether he ever 6 recorded conversations in his office? 7 A I don't know. 8 Q When you told Mr. Lindsay about 9 your concerns about the FBI files and the 10 Travel Office firings and Mr. Emory, what was 11 his response? 12 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection, form. 13 THE WITNESS: Well, it was 14 different than what I had expected. I 15 thought, it had taken me a great deal of sort 16 of convincing myself this was the right thing 17 to do and that Bruce Lindsay was the right 18 person to speak to about all of this. 19 I knew that Mr. Nussbaum valued his 20 friendship and thought highly of Mr. Lindsay, 21 so it just appeared to me to be the right 22 choice and his reaction was just not what I 826 1 had expected. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Was it anything other than what you 4 testified to earlier this morning, talk like 5 that will destroy you? 6 A It was clear that I was not giving 7 him any news flashes at all. These were not 8 news bulletins to Bruce. 9 Q Did he say he would look in to it? 10 A No, basically he said that -- he 11 did make an actual statement about Joel 12 Klein. He said it's too late now, he knows 13 too much. He didn't say it in a way like 14 covert, oh, he knows too much. It's like now 15 he's completely immersed as the Whitewater 16 damage control lawyer. He was very frank 17 with me about that. 18 I said are you aware of the kinds 19 of things he's doing and the things he's 20 saying to the other staff members and senior 21 staff members, at that, about Mr. Nussbaum. 22 He shook his head and kind of as to say, you 827 1 know, what can you do. We are stuck with him 2 now is kind of the feeling I had. 3 So, that seemed appropriate, an 4 appropriate response, or one that I would 5 have envisioned coming from Mr. Lindsay. But 6 the rest of the conversation led me to 7 believe that he wasn't surprised at all about 8 behaviors that I was addressing. 9 Q When you say he said we are stuck 10 with Klein or gave you that impression -- 11 A Again, it was, yes, casual, you 12 know, we are stuck with him. He may not have 13 used the word stuck. Here's here to stay 14 or -- 15 Q He knows too much? 16 A He did say he knows too much. He's 17 completely immeshed, he's completely 18 involved. 19 Q Did you take that to mean you can't 20 get rid of him because then he could spill 21 the beans; is that the impression you had? 22 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection. 828 1 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to form. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q You can respond. 4 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection, 5 leading. Go ahead. 6 Do you understand the question? 7 THE WITNESS: Yes. 8 MR. ZACCAGNINI: You can answer it. 9 THE WITNESS: What I took from that 10 conversation was that whether or not these 11 things I was saying had merit, it was clearly 12 way too late to pull the plug on Joel Klein. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Again, you were interested in 15 pulling the plug on Joel Klein because of 16 what you had observed about his activities 17 and about what his attitude was towards 18 Mr. Nussbaum? 19 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection. 20 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, 21 irrelevant, calls for speculation, lack of 22 foundation. 829 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q You can respond. 3 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection to form, 4 objection to relevance. 5 THE WITNESS: What does that mean, 6 do I answer or not? 7 MR. ZACCAGNINI: You can answer. 8 THE WITNESS: Could you repeat the 9 question? 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q What I'm trying to understand is 12 were you kind of making a subtle 13 recommendation to Lindsay to get rid of Klein 14 because of what you had heard and observed? 15 A I did make that recommendation to 16 Bruce Lindsay and if that sounds unusual or 17 as though I was inserting myself in an 18 inappropriate way, I had developed that level 19 of candor with Bruce Lindsay over time during 20 my tenure at the White House. 21 Q So based on your experience and 22 dealing with Mr. Klein, your impression was 830 1 you were dealing here with a very bad 2 character? 3 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, 4 relevance, leading, form. 5 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection, 6 leading, relevance, form. 7 THE WITNESS: Geez, I didn't feel I 8 was bringing to Bruce's attention something 9 that was presumptuous on my part. I felt 10 that he needed to be aware of what I was 11 witnessing. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q During the time that you worked in 14 the White House Counsel's Office, are you 15 aware of any individuals, outside of the 16 Administration that had asked favors from 17 Mr. Klein? 18 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'll object on 19 that question on the basis of scope and 20 relevance. 21 MR. GILLIGAN: Scope, relevance, 22 speculation. 831 1 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q In other words, somebody to the 4 effect I know where to find out information 5 about so and so? 6 A I don't know how that may have 7 happened or not. I don't know. 8 Q During the time that you worked in 9 the White House Counsel's Office, do you know 10 of any contact by James Carville with that 11 office? 12 A With our office? 13 Q Yes. 14 A Frequently. 15 Q What do you know about that? 16 A Just that he was there a lot. He 17 was there a lot. 18 Q Who did he meet with? 19 A Oh, heavens. He, when he was on 20 the second floor, I only knew him to meet 21 with -- well, let me correct, I only knew 22 that he went into Mrs. Clinton's office. 832 1 Whether he met with her or not, I don't know, 2 but that was relatively routinely. 3 Q What did you mean by relatively 4 routinely? 5 A I saw him frequently enter her 6 office. 7 Q More than once a week? 8 A Oh, no, no, I don't mean, he didn't 9 come to work there. A couple times a month, 10 whatever. I mean we saw James relatively 11 frequently anyway in the compound. 12 Counsel's Office, yeah. I would 13 see him in our office. I don't remember 14 right now, I don't ever remember him visiting 15 Bernie. I think he came to see Vince a 16 couple of times. 17 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection that this 18 line of questioning falls outside the scope 19 of direct and cross-examination. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Did you see Carville meet with Joel 22 Klein at all? 833 1 A I don't have a recollection of that 2 right now. 3 Q Did you see him meet with William 4 Kennedy? 5 A Yes. No, correct, I saw him speak 6 with William Kennedy on more than one 7 occasion in the corridors. I don't remember 8 whether or not they had a meeting. 9 This didn't seem unusual to us. 10 James was someone who was held in high 11 regards in the Administration and seemed to 12 have unlimited access, so it didn't surprise 13 us at all. 14 Q Have you seen press reports that 15 James Carville keeps files on adversaries of 16 the Administration? 17 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 18 THE WITNESS: No. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Are you aware of press reports that 21 Carville is a friend of Larry Flint? 22 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 834 1 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection to 2 relevance, scope, beyond the scope of direct 3 and cross. You may answer. 4 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 5 THE WITNESS: I don't remember, I 6 don't remember seeing such press reports. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Are you aware of press reports that 9 Tonya Flint says that Carville gave Flint FBI 10 files? 11 MR. GILLIGAN: Same objection. 12 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection to scope 13 and relevance. 14 THE WITNESS: I haven't followed 15 the Hustler magazine connection with this 16 White House, although nothing would surprise 17 me. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q During the time you were in the 20 White House Counsel's Office, did you see 21 anybody from Williams and Connolly? 22 A First of all, I believe I've seen 835 1 Mr. Gaffney before, but I'm not sure where. 2 Q It wasn't outside your house, was 3 it? 4 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 5 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection. 6 THE WITNESS: No. It's usually, a 7 recollection I believe I would have had 8 during my White House tenure, but again, I'm 9 not positive. 10 Mr. Kendall, I believe, is from 11 Williams and Connolly? 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Yes. 14 A I worked with Mr. Kendall 15 frequently with Mr. Nussbaum and Mr. Lindsay 16 and saw him frequently. 17 Q Did you ever discuss the FBI files 18 with Mr. Kendall? 19 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 20 THE WITNESS: No. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q In addition to Mr. Lindsay, did you 836 1 discuss the FBI files with anyone else at the 2 White House? 3 Well, obviously, Betsy Pond and 4 Debra Gorham. But, in addition to Debra 5 Gorham and Betsy Pond and Bruce Lindsay, did 6 you discuss your concerns about FBI files 7 with anybody else? 8 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 9 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, outside 10 the scope of the direct and cross. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q You can respond. 13 A I don't know. I don't know that I, 14 I may have with Deb Coyle, Bruce Lindsay's 15 assistant. I may have with members of the 16 career support staff. 17 Q Who may have you discussed it with? 18 This is just discovery, we don't need 19 absolute certainty here. 20 A I'd rather not. 21 Q We need to know that because of 22 discovery. 837 1 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Do you have any 2 recollection? 3 THE WITNESS: I just don't have a 4 specific recollection of who. I just know 5 that it was something that bothered me at the 6 time, so it is likely I would have mentioned 7 it to others with whom I had a -- I know, for 8 instance, that I mentioned it with two people 9 who are still at the White House and for 10 reasons, obviously, that might affect their 11 future employment, I'd prefer not to name 12 them. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q You have to name them, 15 unfortunately. 16 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Is there a 17 question? 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes, she has to name 19 them, Zac. 20 THE WITNESS: I have to name them? 21 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Yes. 22 THE WITNESS: Kate Fredrich and 838 1 Irene McGowan. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q How do you spell their names? 4 A Fredrich with a c-h at the end, and 5 McGowan, I'm not sure, is M-a-c or 6 M-c-g-o-w-a-n. 7 Q They are still at the White House? 8 A To the best of my knowledge. I 9 haven't spoken to them since this time last 10 year. 11 Q Where did they work at the time you 12 talked to them about the FBI files? 13 A White House personnel. 14 Q Which one worked in White House 15 personnel, both? 16 A Both, and then one took positions 17 with the NSC and last I understood she was 18 working for Sandy Berger in the West Wing. 19 Q What specifically did you say to 20 Ms. McGowan? 21 MR. ZACCAGNINI: If you recall. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 839 1 Q Just give us what you can remember. 2 A I related to them essentially 3 everything that you see in the book proposal. 4 Q Was there a distinction between 5 what you relayed to one as opposed to the 6 other? 7 A No. 8 Q When did you relay this information 9 to them? 10 A Prior to my departure from the 11 White House. 12 Q Just refresh our recollection on 13 that date. 14 A My departure from the White House 15 was August of '94, so it was prior to that. 16 Q If either of these two individuals 17 were questioned under oath, do you have any 18 reason to believe they may not confirm that 19 you spoke to them about the FBI files at the 20 time? 21 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection, 22 speculation. 840 1 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q You can respond. 4 A I feel in the case of one of them 5 that I may have firsthand knowledge of 6 whether she would or not at this point in 7 time. 8 I would have said prior to this 9 year that neither one of them would ever 10 bastardize their integrity by lying under 11 oath. I thought very highly of both of them. 12 I still do. 13 But I can tell you unequivocally 14 that Kate Fredrich in her testimony either 15 before the Grand Jury or in a deposition has 16 denied certain conversations that I had with 17 her and has done so under oath. 18 Q Do you believe that Ms. McGowan 19 would come forward and tell the truth? 20 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection, 21 speculation. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 841 1 Q One way or the other, do you have 2 any reason to believe one way or the other? 3 A I will reiterate that until this 4 past year I would have never doubted their 5 integrity or their absolute obligation 6 personally to themselves to speak the truth 7 under oath. 8 I think now that I, I think that 9 survival is probably the driving force. 10 Q Physical survival? 11 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection, 12 speculation. 13 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to the 14 form. 15 THE WITNESS: Professional, 16 professional career survival. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q What is it that you said about 19 William Kennedy to Bruce Lindsay, you said 20 that was another thing that you discussed 21 with him? 22 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 842 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Another topic. 3 A I don't recall if I spoke with him 4 in any level of detail at all about the 5 database concerns I had with his 6 conversations I had overheard with Marcia 7 Scott, I don't remember. I may well have. 8 But I do remember talking to him 9 about the files in Bill Kennedy's office. 10 Q Did you tell him about how Kennedy 11 when you asked if they were vetting files 12 gave you the impression otherwise? 13 A No, I don't recall saying that at 14 all. I don't think we got -- 15 Q Did you tell him how many files you 16 had seen? 17 A I don't think we got into that 18 level of detail. 19 I remember saying hundreds of 20 files. It was my belief that they were files 21 of political enemies, real or perceived. 22 But, no, I don't remember 843 1 discussing anything beyond that. 2 Q Did you ever see Lindsay go into 3 Kennedy's office? 4 A I have no recollection of that, no. 5 Q During the time that you worked in 6 the White House, were there persons or 7 entities identified as adversaries of the 8 Administration? 9 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, 10 speculation, vague, lacks foundation. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q You talked about the so-called 13 adversaries, enemies, whatever you want to 14 call them. 15 Do you remember certain individuals 16 or entities or groups being mentioned when 17 you worked at the White House? 18 A Well, the independent counsel. I 19 think it was prior, it may well have been 20 prior to Judge Starr, even. 21 Q Anyone else? 22 A I just don't remember. I mean I 844 1 don't have a memory of a hate list or 2 anything, or any list that way, no. 3 Q When you talked about Klein being 4 in charge of Whitewater damage control, we 5 are using the word Whitewater broadly or 6 narrowly, did you mean scandal control? 7 A Well no, it was actually called 8 Whitewater damage control. It was, perhaps 9 over time, now it would be perceived 10 differently, but at the time that was the way 11 the scandal had been referred to in the 12 press. Remember the time frame. 13 Q Do you know whether anyone ever 14 relayed your concerns about the FBI files and 15 the Travel Office firings to Hillary Clinton? 16 A I have no idea. 17 Q Are you aware that in this lawsuit 18 Terry Good testified that he saw a typed 19 document from you relating to your employment 20 status in a box that came from Joel Klein? 21 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, 22 mischaracterizes Mr. Good's testimony. 845 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q You can respond. 3 A I'm sorry, I don't understand. 4 Q In this case we've taken the 5 testimony of Terry Good; are you aware of 6 that? 7 A Uh-huh, yes. 8 Q Mr. Good testified that a document 9 which came from Klein's office had 10 documentation concerning you; are you aware 11 of that? 12 A No, I'm sorry, I'm not. 13 Q Do you know whether Mr. Klein kept 14 a file on you, Linda Tripp? 15 A Do I know. I know what I was told 16 by Julie Mixell. 17 Q What did Julie Mixell tell you? 18 A She had said that you don't want to 19 cross Mr. Klein. You don't want to cross 20 Mr. Klein. She intimated to me that he kept 21 information on people who crossed him. From 22 that I tended to believe that it was possible 846 1 that I could be on that list. 2 Q She told you that he kept files of 3 people who crossed him? 4 A Information, I believe she said. 5 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Did you ever see Ms. Mixell prepare 8 files with labels on it with peoples' names? 9 A Yes, but I don't know, I can't 10 remember with any level of specificity 11 whether it was enemies names or friends 12 names. 13 Q Where were those files stored? 14 A In Mr. Klein's office. 15 Q In a file cabinet? 16 A Yes, in -- file credenza, as I 17 remember. 18 Q Was there any kind of procedure in 19 the White House Counsel's Office for keeping 20 an inventory of files when you worked there? 21 A It was horribly lax. 22 Q Did some people keep an inventory 847 1 of their files and others not? 2 A Vince Foster kept a rather detailed 3 inventory of his files. 4 Q Where did he keep that inventory? 5 A In his files, I believe, in his 6 office. 7 Q After he died, did you ever see 8 that inventory? 9 A I don't recall seeing. I saw, I 10 think I saw it in some proceeding, but I 11 don't remember seeing it actually while I was 12 there. 13 Q Did Mr. Kennedy keep an inventory 14 of his files? 15 A I don't know. 16 Q Mr. Lindsay? 17 A Don't know. 18 Q Were you aware of any kind of 19 filing system to keep information about 20 people or organizations? 21 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the 22 vagueness. 848 1 THE WITNESS: I only refer back to 2 my experience with people base in the 3 President's Office. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q What is people base? 6 A I don't know. It was what it 7 was -- it was referred to me as a database of 8 supporters, friends. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q During the time that you worked in 11 the White House Counsel's Office, are you 12 aware of any matter involving Microsoft? 13 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection, beyond 14 the scope of cross and direct. 15 THE WITNESS: No. 16 MR. GILLIGAN: Irrelevant. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Did you ever see Joel Klein go into 19 William Kennedy's office? 20 A I don't recall. 21 Q Did you have any contact with a 22 lawyer by the name of Cheryl Mills when you 849 1 worked in the White House Counsel's Office? 2 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection, beyond 3 the scope. 4 MR. GILLIGAN: Beyond the scope of 5 direct and cross. Join. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q You can respond. 8 A Routinely. 9 Q Under what circumstances did you 10 have contact with Ms. Mills? 11 A First of all, that started well 12 before my tenure began in the Counsel's 13 Office. I met Cheryl early days, I believe, 14 when I worked with Bruce Lindsay. 15 Q What was her job? 16 A I think at the time she was 17 probably one of the many, I think she was an 18 associate counsel, I believe. 19 Q What did you understand her duties 20 and responsibilities to be when you worked in 21 the White House Counsel's Office? 22 A I don't recall which area of the 850 1 counsel's office was her responsibility. I 2 just recall being completely aware from the 3 very early time forward that she was a very 4 valued and trusted aide. 5 Q Based on your experience in working 6 in the White House Counsel's Office, did she 7 play a role in Whitewater damage control? 8 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, 9 irrelevant. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q You can respond. 12 A Yes, that was a name, one of a 13 couple of others that I had failed to mention 14 and completely forgot about Cheryl, actually, 15 having to do with the John Padesta meetings 16 that we had spoken of prior to today. 17 Q Which were the meetings where they 18 discussed the various scandals? 19 A Uh-huh. 20 Q Did you ever have any discussions 21 with Ms. Mills about FBI files or any other 22 concerns? 851 1 A No. 2 Q Did you ever see Ms. Mills in the 3 presence of Hillary Clinton? 4 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection. 5 THE WITNESS: Yes. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q On several occasions or one 8 occasion, how many occasions? 9 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, form. 10 THE WITNESS: Several. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Did you ever overhear any 13 conversations? 14 A No. I think I saw Cheryl in 15 Mrs. Clinton's presence, frankly every time 16 that I, my recollection tells me every time I 17 did, she was with Bruce, as well. 18 Q So the three of them would meet? 19 A I don't know if they met. 20 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection, form. 21 THE WITNESS: I've seen them speak. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 852 1 Q Where did you see them speak? 2 A Whether it was down in Bruce's area 3 or the President's area or in Hillary's area. 4 Again, I can't tell you today that it was a 5 formal meeting of any kind. I remember 6 seeing the three of them speak, several 7 times. 8 Q Are you aware of Mrs. Clinton 9 calling Ms. Mills frequently? 10 A I wouldn't know that. I can tell 11 you that, I reiterate that she was completely 12 trusted, that she seemed to -- 13 Q Trusted by whom? 14 A Mr. Lindsay. She seemed to have a 15 very close, shall we say, relationship with 16 Mr. Lindsay, far closer than other peers. 17 Q What led you to believe that she 18 had a close relationship with Mr. Lindsay? 19 A Her routine direct line of 20 communication, unlike that of other 21 associates. 22 My experience during the time that 853 1 I was downstairs in the West Wing office of 2 Bruce Lindsay in the immediate Office of the 3 President I came to know Cheryl Mills far 4 more than any other associate and certain 5 things she relayed to me, frankly. 6 Q Did she ever say anything to you 7 that caused you concern? 8 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the 9 vagueness, relevance. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q You can respond. 12 A Concern, maybe of a personal 13 nature, not of a professional nature. 14 Q Of your personal nature or her 15 personal nature? 16 A Excuse me one moment. 17 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'm going to 18 object to the question on the basis of 19 relevance that it's beyond the scope of the 20 direct and cross-examination. 21 I'm also going to instruct my 22 witness not to respond to the question based 854 1 upon the fact that I think it relates to 2 privileged communications within the White 3 House Counsel's Office. 4 MR. GILLIGAN: I would join in that 5 instruction, then. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm sure that you're 7 happy to, Mr. Gilligan, but can we have an 8 identification of the subject matter, the 9 date of the communication and the general 10 subject matter as one would have if you're 11 going to do a privileged log. 12 MR. GILLIGAN: I've got it, Betsy. 13 I think, yes, that we need to take a break 14 and I need to confer with Mr. Zaccagnini 15 before there's any further questioning on 16 this subject. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Let me finish up a few questions 19 here before we do that. 20 Is there anyone other than who 21 you've identified today and in prior 22 deposition sessions who you discussed FBI 855 1 files with, either inside or outside of the 2 White House? 3 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 4 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, asked and 5 answered. 6 THE WITNESS: I just don't know. 7 Do you mind, let me think about it through 8 the break. I really haven't thought about 9 this, so -- 10 MR. KLAYMAN: I'd like to keep the 11 break to five minutes. 12 MR. GILLIGAN: The break will be as 13 long as and short as necessary. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Well you're not 15 representing her, Mr. Gilligan. 16 MR. GILLIGAN: I'm representing the 17 interests of the White House. If there's 18 privileged information you're seeking to 19 elicit here, I am representing -- 20 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not seeking to 21 elicit anything that's legitimately 22 privileged. 856 1 MR. GILLIGAN: Well, it may take 2 more than -- 3 MR. KLAYMAN: I ask you to keep it 4 to five minutes. 5 MR. GILLIGAN: It may take more 6 than five minutes to ascertain that, 7 Mr. Klayman. 8 You only have 45 minutes of 9 testimony left. We're not in a hurry. 10 (Recess) 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q You may respond. 13 MR. ZACCAGNINI: With respect to 14 that question, Mr. Klayman, I'm going to 15 assert a privilege. The communications that 16 Ms. Tripp would offer in response to that 17 question deal with privileged communications 18 amongst White House staff, White House 19 counsel staff, relating to matters about 20 Whitewater, with specificity about how 21 witnesses may or may not testify, what they 22 know, what they are expected to say. 857 1 Additionally, a possible response 2 to that question, also I would object and 3 advise my client not to respond to the 4 question because another communication deals 5 with a highly personal nature related to 6 Ms. Mills that is completely irrelevant to 7 the scope of this deposition and would tend 8 to cause embarrassment or harm to her. 9 I would submit that if necessary, 10 we would submit our response to the Court for 11 an in-camera review and allow the Judge to 12 make a determination. 13 Again I think this is largely 14 consistent with the Court's finding in the 15 Betsy Pond and Debra Gorham matter. 16 MR. GILLIGAN: Just for the record, 17 EOP joins in the objection and the 18 instruction for the reasons stated. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: The problem I have 20 with that, and it's fine if we want to 21 approach the Court, but we have filed a 22 pleading recently to have the prior rulings 858 1 reconsidered based on Ms. Tripp's earlier 2 testimony during the last session about 3 certain concerns about how Ms. Pond may 4 testify if called upon to do so in this case. 5 To the extent that there are 6 personal issues that individuals do not want 7 exposed or released into the media, then 8 that's the kind of a situation that could 9 create coercion in terms of a witness' 10 testimony. It may help explain certain 11 behavior in terms of why people did certain 12 things and didn't do other things. 13 So these are very relevant issues. 14 We are happy to submit it to the Court and I 15 hope that when we do so, you can give a 16 little more detailed proffer to the Judge. 17 But I don't think we all understood 18 at the time what the nature of the perceived 19 difficulties Ms. Tripp would have with the 20 testimony of Ms. Pond. 21 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I understand and 22 obviously we'll defer to the Court's ruling 859 1 on that matter. 2 MR. GILLIGAN: I just want to add 3 this has nothing to do with Ms. Pond, so I 4 don't see what relevance that has, but why 5 don't we forge ahead. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: It has something to 7 do with the whole issue of secrets that 8 people don't want disclosed and the potential 9 that those secrets could be used to coerce 10 individuals into testifying in a particular 11 way. 12 MR. GILLIGAN: I understand your 13 theory, Mr. Klayman. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Can you elaborate 15 more, Mr. Zaccagnini, about the Whitewater 16 subjects? 17 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I won't at this 18 time, I'm sorry. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: What is meant by 20 Whitewater; is it a euphemism for scandal? 21 MR. ZACCAGNINI: From my 22 perspective it means the White House's 860 1 counsel that were assigned to that matter 2 which were already discussed in terms of 3 damage control. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: We know that the 5 White House Whitewater damage control team 6 dealt with more than Whitewater, per se. 7 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Right, I 8 understand. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm taking it to mean 10 that. 11 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Yes, it does mean 12 Whitewater. 13 MR. GILLIGAN: You can take it to 14 mean whatever you want, Mr. Klayman, the 15 stated subject matter is Whitewater. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Thank you Judge 17 Gilligan. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Ms. Tripp. 20 A Yes. 21 Q Do you have reason to believe based 22 on your having observed the interaction 861 1 between Ms. Mills and Mr. Lindsay that 2 Mr. Lindsay would have shared with Ms. Mills 3 the concerns you had about the FBI files? 4 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, lack of 5 foundation, calls for speculation. 6 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection, 7 speculation. You may answer. 8 THE WITNESS: I would have no 9 firsthand knowledge of that. I can only say 10 that based on my observation of their 11 relationship, it would be quite likely that 12 they might have discussed this very issue. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q I'll show you what I'll ask the 15 court reporter to mark as Exhibit No. 18. 16 This is the first privileged log which you 17 made available to all the counsel here today, 18 your counsel did, at least, Mr. Zaccagnini. 19 (Tripp Deposition Exhibit No. 18 20 was marked for identification.) 21 MR. MAZUR: This is the first 22 amended one? 862 1 MR. KLAYMAN: First amended 2 privileged log. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Is this something which your 5 counsel has produced here today, Ms. Tripp? 6 A Yes, it is. 7 Q I'll show you what I'll ask the 8 court reporter to mark as Exhibit No. 19. 9 (Tripp Deposition Exhibit No. 19 10 was marked for identification.) 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q I ask you to tell us exactly what 13 Exhibit No. 19 is, something that your 14 counsel handed to me before the deposition? 15 A This is the redacted version of the 16 so-called book proposal prepared by Maggie 17 Gallagher with information provided to her by 18 me. 19 Q This was typed out by Maggie 20 Gallagher? 21 A Yes, it was. 22 Q Was there a cover to this book 863 1 proposal? 2 A A cover? 3 Q Yes. I see the pages here, I have 4 pages that are numbered 1, 2 -- 5 A If you look at Page 2, I believe 6 that the redacted Chapters 1 through 3 came 7 prior to that. The table of contents would 8 have been I believe the first page. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Let's identify each 10 page. 11 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Mr. Klayman, just 12 so the record is clear and there was a title 13 page, but I think that's all it said, was 14 title, so. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Why did you redact 16 that, then? 17 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Quite simply 18 because I didn't think it was relevant. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Were there other 20 pages that were not produced in toto? 21 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Oh, absolutely. 22 Ms. Tripp can testify to this, but for the 864 1 record, the book proposal, itself, is 47 2 pages, of which we've provided those pages, 3 copies of those pages which we assert were 4 relevant to the deposition process and the 5 balance which our objections are noted. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q How was this book proposal bound, 8 was it a book, was it in a folder? How was 9 it produced? 10 A It resembled, quite frankly, very 11 much the document you have in front of you. 12 It was not bound in any way. It was a draft, 13 let's remember. It was a work in progress, 14 an aborted work, as it happens. 15 Q Was this book proposal ever 16 provided to anyone other than Ms. Gallagher? 17 A No, other than my attorneys, I'm 18 sorry, or the OIC. 19 Q Yes. Who was it provided to? 20 A I believe, I'm not certain, but I 21 believe we provided it to the Office of the 22 Independent Counsel in the course of this 865 1 investigation. I had handed my only copy 2 over to my then attorney, Kirby Bear, and, I 3 don't know, I mean. 4 MR. ZACCAGNINI: That's fine. 5 THE WITNESS: I don't know. I 6 think it may have been then picked up by 7 Mr. Moody who became a new attorney. 8 In any event, I hadn't seen it 9 since I handed it over to my attorney well 10 over a year ago. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q The document which comprises 13 Exhibit No. 19, is it? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Is 10 pages, can you count the 16 pages? 17 A Correct. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: I take it, 19 Mr. Zaccagnini, the totality of this calendar 20 is going to be provided to the Court in 21 camera in this case? 22 MR. ZACCAGNINI: That's correct. 866 1 MR. KLAYMAN: When will you do 2 that? 3 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Probably Monday. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Would you file a 5 notice that you've done that with us? 6 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Sure. Everybody 7 will be notified. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q When was this book proposal 10 written? 11 A To the best of my memory, it had to 12 have been in the June time frame; June, July 13 time frame of '96. It followed Mr. Aldrich's 14 publication and subsequent book tour of 15 Unlimited Access: An FBI Agent Story From 16 Within the Clinton White House, which was 17 precisely the reason for the existence of 18 this book proposal. 19 Q When this book proposal was 20 written, was Ms. Gallagher in your presence? 21 A I'm sorry? 22 Q Was Ms. Gallagher in your presence 867 1 when the book proposal was written? 2 A No, I only met Maggie Gallagher 3 once. Other conversations that we had were 4 by phone. 5 Q Correct me if I'm wrong, she's the 6 one that typed this? 7 A Yes, so she claims, yes, I was not 8 with her. 9 Q Where was she when she typed it? 10 A I assume in her residence in New 11 York. 12 Q Where is her residence in New York? 13 Do you know where she lives? 14 A I don't. She lived, I'm sorry, I 15 just don't remember the name of the town. 16 She lived not in Manhattan. I just don't 17 remember. 18 Q Do you know where she is now? 19 A I believe she's still in New York, 20 but I don't, I don't know. I'm sure she can 21 be reached through Lucianne Goldberg. 22 Q The information which is contained 868 1 in this book proposal which you've produced 2 was given to her orally by you? 3 A All of it, yes. Let me caveat that 4 with this is her version of what I provided 5 to her orally and to the extent that there 6 are errors in some of the retelling, those 7 are errors of interpretation. 8 Q That she made? 9 A Yeah. 10 Q Did she ever give you a copy of the 11 book proposal to review for accuracy? 12 A Well that's precisely the document 13 we are speaking of right now. 14 Q Right. When did you review it? 15 A Again, in that same time frame, 16 over -- I believe we worked together over a 17 six-week period by phone. Sometime in that 18 time frame and then I received this by Fed Ex 19 for review. 20 I read through once, made some 21 edits, realized that this was not going to 22 work for me and did not continue with edits 869 1 and, in fact, withdrew from the project. 2 Q Is the document that you provided 3 to us today an edited version? 4 A Yes. 5 Q But there are still errors in it? 6 A Many. 7 Q She didn't make all of the edits 8 that you proposed? 9 A I never sent it back. 10 Q Let's turn to the first page, the 11 hundreds and hundreds of files stacked in 12 Bill Kennedy's Old Executive Office Building, 13 were you referring to the FBI files there? 14 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection, form. 15 THE WITNESS: I was referring to 16 what I believed to be the FBI files, correct. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q What Betsy Pond told you were the 19 FBI files? 20 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 21 THE WITNESS: Again, that was my 22 understanding of what Betsy Pond had said, 870 1 yes. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Then it says at the bottom my 4 firsthand knowledge of Hillary Clinton's true 5 involvement in the firing of the Travel 6 Office staff. 7 That firsthand knowledge, was that 8 the memorandum that you testified to during 9 the last session? 10 A Correct. 11 Q Was there anything else other than 12 that memorandum that gave you firsthand 13 knowledge, as well as your having seen the 14 interaction of Hillary Clinton with people in 15 the office? 16 A I would refer you to that section 17 of the book proposal. That was my best 18 recollection at that time and we can go over 19 it line by line if you'd like to see if 20 there's areas that require editing or 21 correction. 22 Q Yes, let's turn to that part that 871 1 you're now referring. 2 A Well, it seems to appear in many 3 different areas, where would you like to 4 start? 5 Q Let's take it page by page and 6 we'll come back to it. Let's turn to the 7 second page, which is table of contents. 8 Chapter 4, Mrs. President. 9 A Uh-huh. 10 Q Now were you referring to Hillary 11 Clinton? 12 A Correct. 13 Q Why did you call her 14 Mrs. President? 15 A That's how I perceived 16 Mrs. Clinton. 17 Q You perceived her as having equal 18 if not greater power than Bill Clinton? 19 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 20 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection, 21 leading. You can answer the question. 22 THE WITNESS: I perceived 872 1 Mrs. Clinton to have equal authority. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Was it your perception that Hillary 4 Clinton could order certain actions in the 5 White House without the approval of the 6 President? 7 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 8 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection, form, 9 relevance, speculation. 10 MR. GILLIGAN: Form. Join. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Was that your belief? 13 A My belief was that at times, 14 depending upon the balance of what I 15 perceived to be the power structure in their 16 relationship, that at times, yes, she could 17 effectively order things to happen without 18 his permission. 19 Q Do you have examples of that? 20 A This is an impression I had. 21 Q Then you state under 22 "Mrs. President, What I saw that persuaded me 873 1 Hillary lied under oath regarding Travel 2 Gate. Her ongoing deceptions with respect to 3 Filegate. Hillary's true, unacknowledged 4 role at the White House and in the Counsel's 5 Office." 6 What was it that you saw that 7 persuaded you that Hillary lied under oath 8 regarding Filegate? 9 A Travelgate. 10 Q Anything other than the memorandum 11 that you've testified to during the last 12 session? 13 A Well, there was a period when 14 Mrs. Clinton was appearing I believe on Larry 15 King Live and on other broadcasts concerning 16 her involvement in having had to testify 17 before the Grand Jury on Travel Gate; and 18 during these broadcasts and in these 19 interviews, she referenced her own testimony 20 as having completely disavowed any knowledge 21 of the, any personal knowledge or any hand in 22 the firing of the Travel Office and I knew 874 1 that to be untrue. 2 Q What was the basis of your knowing 3 that to be untrue? 4 A Specifically the memo and certainly 5 impressions, also. 6 Q Then you state, in her ongoing 7 deceptions with respect to Filegate, is that 8 accurate? 9 A Yes. 10 Q What were Mrs. Clinton's ongoing 11 deceptions with regard to Filegate? 12 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 13 THE WITNESS: I am referring here 14 and Maggie is taking my words and 15 acknowledging that my impression was that 16 Mrs. Clinton was not being honest or 17 forthcoming as it related to the files that 18 were housed in the Counsel's Office. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q What led you to believe that? 21 A I believe that they were there for 22 a nefarious reason. I believe that they were 875 1 there intentionally. I have never believed, 2 not even for the shortest of moments, that it 3 was a bureaucratic snafu. 4 Q Is that belief based on the 5 testimony prior to today, as well as today? 6 A Certainly, and also that had it 7 been true that it was a bureaucratic snafu, 8 one would surmise that it would have been 9 corrected. 10 Q How could it have been corrected 11 based on your knowledge and experience? 12 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection, 13 speculation, relevance, beyond the scope. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q You can respond. 16 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Go ahead. 17 THE WITNESS: Personal impressions 18 only? 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Yes. 21 A Would be that they would have been 22 returned from whence they came and that they 876 1 certainly would not have continued to request 2 more additional raw FBI data files. 3 Q Is your belief also based upon the 4 statements Mrs. Clinton made concerning the 5 hiring of Craig Livingstone? 6 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q In terms of her ongoing deceptions? 9 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, leading. 10 THE WITNESS: Frankly, I don't 11 recall Mrs. Clinton's words concerning Craig 12 Livingstone. I know that she, I've read 13 press reports that say that she has disavowed 14 any knowledge, but I don't recall that at the 15 time as being something that made me question 16 that specifically. 17 I do know that I believe and, in 18 fact, have included in this book proposal and 19 had included at that time that she had hired 20 Mr. Livingstone. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q It's upon that fact, as well, that 877 1 you conclude that she had a hand in Filegate? 2 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 3 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection, 4 leading. 5 THE WITNESS: I think it had more 6 to do with Craig Livingstone's inferences and 7 implications that he let me know in no 8 uncertain terms that, A, he was hired by 9 Mrs. Clinton and, B, that he reported to 10 Mrs. Clinton on certain matters. 11 Did I have a feeling that she was 12 responsible for files, I didn't know that to 13 be true. I had a feeling he reported to her, 14 however, and my concern was that while the 15 files in Mr. Livingstone's area were not 16 nearly as voluminous as those that were in 17 Bill Kennedy's office, I still had a sense 18 that Mr. Livingstone played a part in this 19 particular issue. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Based on your having seen the 22 interaction of the two and Mr. Livingstone's 878 1 statements that he reported to Hillary 2 Clinton, it was your belief that she must 3 have been aware of what was going on with the 4 files? 5 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, leading, 6 compound. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q You can respond. 9 MR. GILLIGAN: Calls for conclusion 10 based on facts not in evidence. Calls for 11 speculation. 12 MR. GAFFNEY: I join the objection. 13 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Beyond the scope. 14 You can answer. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q You can respond. This is all 17 lawyer stuff, we just want you to tell the 18 truth. 19 A I always tell the truth, 20 Mr. Klayman. 21 Q I know that. 22 A Could you repeat the question, 879 1 please? I'm serious, there's so many 2 objections. 3 Q Based upon the interaction that you 4 had seen between Mr. Livingstone and 5 Mrs. Clinton that you've testified and his 6 statements that he was hired by Mrs. Clinton, 7 it was your belief that Mrs. Clinton knew 8 about the FBI file situation? 9 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 10 THE WITNESS: I had absolutely no 11 doubt in my mind. That was my feeling, my 12 impression, I can't prove it. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q You state. 15 A I might like to add something to 16 that, though. I never had that same feeling 17 as it pertained to Mr. Clinton. 18 Q Why is that? 19 A I had no reason to believe that he 20 wasn't surprised by some of these 21 revelations, frankly. I had -- 22 Q What do you base that on? 880 1 A Just exposure to him over time and 2 demeanor and perhaps a slight bit more than 3 the average person ability to tell when he's 4 being completely forthright or less so, and 5 that, again, I would chalk up to exposure. 6 So, I, frankly, believed him when 7 he indicated he wasn't particularly involved 8 or thought of it as a bureaucratic snafu 9 personally. I didn't think that was true of 10 Mrs. Clinton. 11 Q Have you always been right about 12 Mr. Clinton's ability to project telling the 13 truth? 14 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection, 15 relevance. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q In your own opinion? 18 A I don't know. I don't know. I can 19 only tell you my opinion and I think I'm 20 pretty accurate, generally speaking, with 21 him, yeah. 22 Q In your conversations with 881 1 Mr. Lindsay, did he ever tell you that he had 2 contact with President Clinton? 3 A Did he ever tell me? 4 Q Yes. 5 A I don't understand. 6 Q Were you aware that Lindsay spoke 7 with the President frequently when you worked 8 at the White House? 9 A Yes. 10 Q That Lindsay was one of the 11 President's closest confidantes, was that 12 your impression? 13 A Well I believe I've testified that 14 I thought he was his closest confidante. 15 Q You saw the two of them frequently 16 together? 17 A I saw them together almost 18 constantly, travel and in town. 19 Q So based upon what you knew to be 20 that close relationship, the closest 21 confidante, would you have, did you assume 22 when you told Lindsay about the FBI files 882 1 matters that he was then going to tell the 2 President? 3 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection, 4 relevance, speculation. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q You can respond. 7 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 8 THE WITNESS: I was always certain 9 in my mind that whatever I discussed with 10 Bruce, if it were of a nature that would have 11 any interest at all to the President would 12 get to the President. 13 I have failed to mention that in 14 the conversation with Bruce Lindsay, in the 15 one that I testified was lengthy, I had 16 mentioned Kathleen Wiley, and I pretty much 17 at that time thought that that would be 18 relayed to the President and I wanted it to 19 be. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q What about Kathleen Wiley? 22 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection, again, 883 1 we are going beyond the scope and relevance. 2 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q You can respond. You can respond. 5 A Right. Right. My observations, 6 frankly. 7 Q What observations? 8 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I think I'm going 9 to instruct the client -- 10 MR. KLAYMAN: She answered the 11 question. I'm entitled to an answer. 12 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I understand. I'm 13 going to instruct her not to answer any 14 further questions along this line because I 15 think it's clearly beyond the scope of the 16 Judge's order. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Zac. 18 MR. ZACCAGNINI: First off, it's 19 beyond the scope, it's beyond the scope of 20 the direct examination, it's beyond the scope 21 of the cross-examination. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: It's interesting that 884 1 you had no problem with him going beyond the 2 scope. Mr. Gaffney went far beyond the scope 3 and I didn't hear one objection. 4 THE WITNESS: Yeah, how come? No, 5 I'm kidding. 6 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Mr. Klayman, I've 7 allowed parties from both sides to go far 8 afield on many occasions. There are times 9 where I'm going to draw the line and this is 10 one of those occasions. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Well the reason I'm 12 getting into it, Mr. Zaccagnini, is because 13 it shows a course of communication and 14 conduct and it shows the intimacy of the 15 relationship between Lindsay and the 16 President. 17 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'm not quite sure 18 how that's relevant, but I still don't think 19 anything about Kathleen Wiley can be remotely 20 relevant to the Filegate investigation. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Can I find out 22 whether it deals with this incident, when she 885 1 left the President's office, is it about that 2 incident? 3 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Yes. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Without getting 5 graphic. 6 THE WITNESS: No, it actually 7 didn't involve that episode, no. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Can she just testify 9 generally what else it involves? 10 THE WITNESS: Excuse me. 11 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Again, 12 Mr. Klayman, I'm going to reiterate the 13 objection and instruct my client not to 14 respond. 15 I think the inquiry goes well 16 beyond the scope of why we are here and what 17 I understand the response to be is completely 18 irrelevant to anything to do with this part 19 of the investigation of your case. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Well I just, I don't 21 understand that, Mr. Zaccagnini, since 22 counsel for Mrs. Clinton basically got into 886 1 Grand Jury proceedings of the Lewinsky matter 2 for several, a good period of time during the 3 last session. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q You assumed that Lindsay would have 6 told the President about your concerns? 7 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection, form. 8 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, 9 relevance. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q You can respond. 12 A I thought it was likely. 13 Q Do you know, now when you told 14 Lindsay about your concerns about the FBI 15 files, the so-called FBI file scandal had not 16 become known at that time to the public, had 17 it? 18 A When I spoke to Bruce about this? 19 Q Yes. 20 A No, uh-uh, it didn't become public 21 for some time. 22 Q Do you know whether the President 887 1 ordered any corrective action? 2 A I have no idea. I left shortly 3 thereafter, as you'll recall, I left in 4 August of '94. So I would have no firsthand 5 knowledge of what happened at the White House 6 following my departure. 7 Q Do you know of anything that you've 8 learned since you've left the White House 9 that the President took any remedial action 10 about the FBI file concerns that you 11 expressed to Lindsay? 12 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection, form. 13 THE WITNESS: It's been a long time 14 since I've read any of the press reports 15 about Filegate. I remember being at the 16 Pentagon at the time. I don't know what 17 actions, if any, he's taken. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Let's go to the next page, "A memo 20 I saw, with Hillary's handwritten note, that 21 convinced me Hillary Clinton lied under oath 22 regarding her role in the Travel Gate 888 1 firing." 2 Is that that memorandum that you 3 testified to? 4 A Right, you'll find that it appears 5 in its entirety further along in the book 6 proposal. 7 Q Then you state, "new circumstantial 8 evidence that Filegate may not have been an 9 accident of low-level employees, as the White 10 House has claimed." 11 Is there anything in addition to 12 what you've testified in this deposition that 13 allowed you to conclude such? 14 A No. 15 Q Next page, "What I never told the 16 Grand Jury about Hillary's role in Travel 17 Gate. 18 "Hillary has gone on record under 19 oath as saying she had no direct involvement 20 with the Travel Office firings. I know that 21 she did. When I testified before the Grand 22 Jury, I was asked do you have any firsthand 889 1 knowledge of Hillary Clinton having a hand in 2 the firings. I said, 'yes,' through a memo 3 and because I saw Vince go back and forth to 4 Hillary's office after every staff meeting on 5 the Travel Office. 6 "I was then questioned at some 7 length about the frequency of meetings 8 between Vince and the First Lady, but to this 9 day I don't think they know about the memo 10 because they never followed up on that part, 11 never asked if there was anything they had 12 forgotten to ask." 13 Whose handwriting is that? 14 A Mine. 15 Q That's one of your edits? 16 A Yes. 17 Q "What I saw was this: on Deb 18 Gorham's desk was a memo with the heading 19 'travel office' and the names of Vince Foster 20 and Bill Kennedy on top. At the top 21 right-hand corner of the memo was a 22 handwritten note from Hillary Clinton that 890 1 said: We need these people out, We need our 2 people in, HRC." 3 Is this an accurate recitation of 4 what you told Mrs. Gallagher? 5 A Yes, it is. 6 Q Why is it that you didn't offer up 7 the information about the memo? 8 A Well, I wasn't asked and I think 9 it's wise, you know, I've read press reports 10 from my deposition testimony here, which 11 should not surprise me at this late date at 12 the way things are spun rather masterfully, 13 but I will tell you that it's not that I 14 didn't testify completely in that I was in 15 any way disingenuous. 16 It is that I had a White House 17 appointed attorney. I had an attorney who 18 was in literally daily contact with the White 19 House as to my testimony and I knew that my 20 livelihood depended upon being a team player. 21 So to the extent that I answered 22 honestly, I did. I did not volunteer 891 1 information that was not asked. Most 2 specifically, I did not volunteer information 3 that might endanger the President or the 4 First Lady in any way legally. 5 Q Turn to the next page, it has an 18 6 on the top. 7 "On Filegate: Craig Livingstone 8 claimed responsibility for 'mistakenly' 9 ordering up FBI files on hundreds of 10 Republicans. I went through Craig and Tony's 11 office often and I often saw what was called 12 the vault area, which they left open. But I 13 never saw anything that looked like hundreds 14 of FBI files. Maybe he kept them stashed in 15 his garage." 16 Is this Maggie Gallagher's 17 interpretation? 18 A No, well, actually this is quite 19 close to verbatim in terms of what I told 20 her. I told her that I had seen these files 21 which shared a commonalty to the hundreds 22 that I saw in Bill's office and in other 892 1 locations, but that my impression was that 2 the shear volume was housed in Mr. Kennedy's 3 office, so. 4 Q Turning to the remaining part of 5 this page going on to the next page, up to 6 "On who really hired Craig Livingstone." 7 Is this an accurate recitation of 8 what you told Ms. Gallagher? 9 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 10 the question. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q The second paragraph, the third and 13 the fourth on this page numbered 18 at the 14 top and the first two lines on the top of 19? 15 A You know, it's not wrong, it's just 16 by omission not including certain things that 17 I had spoken to her about or she emphasized 18 certain things that I would not have, 19 necessarily. 20 For instance, in the Bill Kennedy's 21 own personnel file there, she refers to it as 22 a personnel file. I don't recall referring 893 1 to it as anything, other than a file. 2 We, in the support staff in the 3 West Wing, asked one another why he was the 4 only counsel office representative or staff 5 member whose file was maintained in Vince's 6 safe, which is not to imply in any way that 7 that was the only file with a name that was 8 in the safe. 9 The rest of it looks relatively 10 accurate based on my memory. 11 Q If we were to obtain 12 Ms. Gallagher's testimony under oath, do you 13 have any reason to believe she might not tell 14 the truth? 15 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection, 16 relevance, speculation. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q As to what you told her at the 19 time? 20 A You know, I don't know Maggie 21 Gallagher, I've spoken to her other than 22 during that time frame once since, so I would 894 1 have no way of knowing. 2 I would like to believe that 3 everyone would be inclined to tell the truth 4 under oath. 5 Q At the time that this information 6 was relayed to Ms. Gallagher, you did not 7 know of the President's relationship with 8 Monica Lewinsky, did you? 9 A No. 10 Q You had no intention of taping any 11 conversations of Monica Lewinsky at the time, 12 did you? 13 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Because you didn't even know her 16 then, right? 17 A I did know her, actually, but 18 that's all I'll say. 19 Q You had no motive other than to 20 tell the truth to Ms. Gallagher when you gave 21 her this information? 22 A Did I have another motive? 895 1 Q Yes. 2 A There were those who would probably 3 say I did, but, no, actually I wanted the 4 truth put to paper at the time. 5 Q Have you suffered any job 6 retaliation as a result of your involvement 7 in the Lewinsky scandal? 8 A Well yesterday marked the one year 9 anniversary of my absence from my duty 10 station at the Pentagon, so to the extent 11 that I've been removed from the directorship 12 of the program I chaired and to the extent 13 that I've been denied access to my duty 14 station, I believe I have, yes. 15 Q Have you been interviewed by anyone 16 from the Inspector General of the Department 17 of Defense concerning the release of your 18 Pentagon file information by Ken Bacon and 19 Clifford Bernath and perhaps others? 20 MS. COPPOLINO: I'm going to object 21 to that question. I think that that's an 22 ongoing investigation. I think it's 896 1 inappropriate that she be asked to provide 2 information that she's provided to the 3 Inspector General's office. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm allowed to find 5 out whether she's been interviewed. I'm not 6 asking for the information. 7 THE WITNESS: Hey, it's early days 8 yet. It's only been almost a year. I'm sure 9 they'll get around to it one of these days. 10 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Just answer the 11 question. 12 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, I don't 13 have any memory of them even contacting me. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Has anyone told you outside of the 16 Pentagon as to what the likely result of the 17 so-called investigation will be? 18 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection, 19 relevance. 20 MS. COPPOLINO: Objection, this 21 calls for speculation, relevance. 22 MR. ZACCAGNINI: If I may just have 897 1 a second. 2 MR. GILLIGAN: Mr. Holley, can we 3 have a time check while they are conferring? 4 VIDEOGRAPHER: 11:59. 5 THE WITNESS: My counsel advises me 6 that we've been approached on more than one 7 occasion by representatives of the Inspector 8 General Office to request interviews and we 9 have declined. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Who approached you? 12 A I've been advised by counsel that 13 someone has, I don't know. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Can you say? 15 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Justice counsel, I 16 can't remember her name, to be honest with 17 you, as well as somebody from the IG's office 18 and we've advised them that Linda doesn't 19 have any personal knowledge as it relates to 20 the release of her Privacy Act information 21 and she has nothing to add and declined to be 22 interviewed. 898 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q During the time that you worked in 3 the White House, did you see any letters that 4 Kathleen Wiley had written to the President? 5 A Many. Is this relevant? 6 Q Yes, it's relevant. 7 MR. ZACCAGNINI: You can answer the 8 question. You did. 9 THE WITNESS: All right. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q How did you come upon those 12 letters? 13 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Again, we are 14 going to object at this point because it's 15 beyond the scope. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: That's directly a 17 part of this case, Mr. Zaccagnini. 18 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Dispute it with 19 the Judge, Mr. Klayman. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: I dispute the fact 21 that it points in this deposition for some 22 reason unknown to me that you throw a monkey 899 1 wrench in the legitimate, relevant questions. 2 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Take it up with 3 the Judge, Mr. Klayman. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: I will take it up 5 with the Judge, and on this question I'm 6 going to move for sanctions, because this is 7 part of the case. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Are you aware of a request by a 10 White House employee for your divorce records 11 in Howard County, Maryland? 12 A I'm sorry, repeat, please. 13 Q Are you aware of a request by a 14 White House employees for divorce records in 15 Howard County, Maryland? 16 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection, form. 17 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, facts not 18 in evidence, calls for speculation, no 19 relevance. 20 THE WITNESS: I was told that an 21 individual representing to be a member of the 22 White House communications office requested 900 1 not just my divorce decree, but also the 2 proceeding. 3 Am I missing something here? 4 MR. ZACCAGNINI: We are out of 5 time. 6 MR. GILLIGAN: What's the time, 7 Mr. Holley? 8 MR. HOLLEY: 12:02. 9 MR. GILLIGAN: You're out of time. 10 MR. ZACCAGNINI: You can answer the 11 question and then that will conclude it. 12 THE WITNESS: Well I think I did, 13 that was it. 14 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Okay. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Thank you, Ms. Tripp. 16 THE WITNESS: You're welcome. 17 MR. GAFFNEY: Why don't we go off 18 the record for a moment. 19 MR. GILLIGAN: Mr. Zaccagnini, let 20 me just get this on the record. 21 Mr. Zaccagnini, in light of 22 Mr. Klayman's raising matters today that were 901 1 outside the scope of either his initial 2 direct or our cross-examination, testimony 3 has come out today that we have not had an 4 opportunity to cross Ms. Tripp on. 5 Mr. Gaffney and I are contemplating 6 a few brief questions to allow us an 7 opportunity to cross-examination. Are you 8 willing to stick around for that? 9 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'd like to talk 10 to my client. I have recommended it, but I 11 would like to talk to my client. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: First of all, we 13 object to that because the Court has not 14 provided for that. We have not been outside 15 of the scope of any cross-examination, as you 16 would call it. 17 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Well, what I would 18 like to do is suggest. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: If you want to get 20 that kind of testimony, I suggest you move 21 the Court for it. But we object to it. 22 My schedule is limited right now. 902 1 I have another appointment. 2 MR. ZACCAGNINI: What I would like 3 to suggest, and I'm sorry Mr. Klayman has 4 another appointment, though, and I have 5 offered to counsel the opportunity to 6 question Ms. Trip regarding the book 7 proposal, because you obviously didn't have 8 it when you were given an opportunity of 9 cross-examining Ms. Tripp, and I've spoken to 10 my client about that, and she's agreeable to 11 that. 12 But, Mr. Klayman, are you 13 unavailable for a short period of questioning 14 on that? 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I do have 16 another appointment. You can settle it up 17 again, and maybe in the interim, we can 18 resolve these other questions, too. 19 MR. GILLIGAN: I object to that. I 20 have five minutes of questioning here at the 21 most, that it seems to me make sense 22 procedurally to take care of now, and that 903 1 it's ridiculous to reconvene this deposition 2 for a fifth time when we could wrap this up 3 right now. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Then I'm going to 5 have to have redirect direct questions. 6 MR. GILLIGAN: Mr. Klayman. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: I would submit, 8 Mr. Gilligan, it's quite clear that at least 9 in terms of the posture of counsel towards 10 plaintiffs, that she's not a friendly witness 11 to our clients in many respects, and I don't 12 understand why you're getting a second bite 13 of the apple. 14 MR. GILLIGAN: Because you exceeded 15 the scope of the direct and cross. 16 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Why don't we set 17 the personalities aside, gentlemen, and try 18 to act like mature adults? 19 Here's what I would suggest, I 20 would suggest, I'm suggesting this to 21 everybody, that you be given an opportunity 22 to question Ms. Tripp about the book 904 1 proposal, that you'd be given one-third of 2 that opportunity, again, time wise, for a 3 redirect direct. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm saying I have a 5 limited schedule. I have to give a speech 6 this afternoon, and if you want to reconvene 7 at a later time, that's fine. 8 MR. GILLIGAN: What time is your 9 speech, Mr. Klayman? 10 MR. KLAYMAN: It occurs at 1:50, 11 but I have many things to do before that, and 12 I'm going out of town, and I have another 13 appointment before then. 14 I was not advised of this. I 15 think, as a matter of courtesy, I should have 16 been advised that this was what you were 17 seeking to do. You had conversations with 18 Mr. Zaccagnini, but we didn't know anything 19 about it. 20 MR. ZACCAGNINI: The only person 21 who I offered to that, so you'll know and you 22 can't blame Mr. Gilligan, is Mr. Gaffney. 905 1 MR. GAFFNEY: One other thing, 2 Mr. Zaccagnini, I believe I provided you 3 yesterday with a subpoena duces tecum. 4 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Right. 5 MR. GAFFNEY: Calling for the 6 appearance -- 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me say this -- 8 MR. GAFFNEY: Please don't 9 interrupt me, Mr. Klayman. 10 I don't know if I have any 11 questions at all other than to get on the 12 record that it was received, and a search was 13 conducted, and that subpoena was served. 14 MR. ZACCAGNINI: That's correct; it 15 was served on associate counsel, 16 Mr. Lardieri. That's fine. 17 MR. GAFFNEY: I may have a few 18 questions pursuant to that subpoena. 19 MR. ZACCAGNINI: That's fine. 20 MR. GAFFNEY: You don't object to 21 doing that? 22 MR. ZACCAGNINI: No, I don't. 906 1 MR. GILLIGAN: I want to state for 2 the record the questions that I have and why 3 they pertain to matters that were outside the 4 scope. 5 Ms. Tripp testified today -- 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, wait a second. 7 This is unauthorized by the Court, and what 8 I'm saying is -- 9 MR. GILLIGAN: You are unauthorized 10 by the Court in exceeding the scope of your 11 direct examination. I don't think the Court 12 ever contemplated that you would, today, be 13 allowed to go into brand new matters that we 14 have never had an opportunity to 15 cross-examine. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Filegate is a brand 17 new matter? 18 MR. GILLIGAN: Ms. Fredrich and 19 Ms. McGowan are brand new matters, 20 Mr. Klayman. There's no reason you could not 21 have elicited testimony. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Gilligan, I'll be 907 1 happy to argue with you in briefs over this, 2 but right now you are getting into areas that 3 the Court has not ordered. 4 Now we have a number of outstanding 5 questions that were not answered. It's our 6 position that some of those questions should 7 have been answered. It's out position that 8 some of those questions, there was no right 9 to instruct the witness not to answer. 10 Now, there are going to have to be 11 motions that have to be filed with regard to 12 Ms. Tripp. If you want to then move for this 13 additional time, that is fine, but I say 14 right now, this deposition is concluded in 15 terms of the Court's order. 16 Now Mr. Gaffney has a separate 17 subpoena. Perhaps Mr. Gaffney, on behalf of 18 the First Lady, wants to assert that he 19 should be allowed to take another deposition 20 of Ms. Tripp, your deposition. Let's brief 21 that, too, if that's your position. 22 But right now I have my schedule 908 1 set and you're asking questions that going to 2 require me to go back and that would be 3 unauthorized, as well. 4 MR. GILLIGAN: I would have no 5 objection. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: I say leave it where 7 it is right now. I do object. 8 MR. GILLIGAN: Thank you for your 9 advice, and I'm going to make my speech on 10 the record now, Mr. Klayman, without 11 interruption by you. 12 Mr. Zaccagnini, I wish to ask a few 13 follow-up questions of Ms. Tripp regarding 14 alleged conversations with Ms. Tripp, that 15 Ms. Fredrich allegedly has denied under oath. 16 It will take an extremely brief period of 17 time. 18 It is my position that since this 19 is testimony that Mr. Klayman elicited beyond 20 the scope of the direct and 21 cross-examination, that we should be given an 22 opportunity to make a few brief inquiries in 909 1 that regard, rather than have a bunch of 2 pointless motions practice and reconvening 3 this deposition on yet a fifth occasion. 4 I ask you, sir, why do we not do 5 this now? 6 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Yes. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm saying it's 8 unauthorized by Court order. 9 MR. GILLIGAN: Your position has 10 been made clear, Mr. Klayman. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Our view is is that 12 if you do that, you're violating the Court 13 order. 14 MR. GAFFNEY: I want to get in my 15 speech, which I assure you will be a little 16 shorter. I think I may be able to obviate, 17 Mr. Zaccagnini, any additional expense on 18 behalf of our respective clients. We 19 discussed briefly the subpoena I delivered to 20 Mr. Lardieri yesterday. 21 MR. ZACCAGNINI: That's correct. 22 MR. GAFFNEY: I gather the 910 1 documents that were produced today were 2 responsive to the subpoena? 3 MR. ZACCAGNINI: That's correct. 4 As I advised you, Mr. Gaffney, neither 5 Ms. Tripp, myself, any of her counsel or 6 Mr. Cowder have a copy of the other document 7 which you were looking for which is the fund 8 raising letter. 9 With respect to the book proposals, 10 this is the only book proposal that I know to 11 be in existence, and obviously, we've stated 12 our objections with respect to turning over 13 the balance of the proposal. 14 MR. GAFFNEY: The objections you 15 stated in the amended responses you provided 16 today would apply equally to my subpoena? 17 MR. ZACCAGNINI: That's correct. 18 MR. GAFFNEY: Thank you. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: What I'm proposing, 20 Mr. Gilligan, both in terms of courtesy 21 towards counsel, we've given you a number of 22 extensions of time, if you want to 911 1 tentatively reset the deposition to ask these 2 questions so we can go to the Court on this 3 issue, that's fine, but this is not 4 authorized by Court order. 5 MR. GILLIGAN: I understand your 6 position. 7 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Mr. Gilligan, let 8 me advise you, and this may be of some 9 assistance while we are bantering, that the 10 conversations that Mrs. Trip had with 11 Ms. Fredrich deal strictly with the Lewinsky 12 matter and, therefore, would probably be out 13 of bounds anyway, but I'll certainly be 14 willing to go into further instructions with 15 you about that. Therefore, I would be 16 instructing her not to respond in all 17 likelihood to any substance of those 18 conversations. 19 MR. GILLIGAN: I take it, then, 20 that to be absolutely crystally clear about 21 it, then, if I were to pose questions trying 22 to ask Ms. Tripp to specify what these 912 1 conversations were, you would instruct her 2 not to answer those questions at this time? 3 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I would. 4 MR. GILLIGAN: I would be forced to 5 move to compel answers to those questions in 6 any event. 7 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Exactly. I would 8 advise that they deal with the Lewinsky 9 matter and that they are, therefore, beyond 10 the scope of Judge Lamberth's Order. 11 MR. GILLIGAN: Very well, then, 12 then we can leave it at that. 13 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Thank you. 14 (Whereupon, at 12:10 p.m., the 15 deposition of LINDA R. TRIPP was 16 adjourned.) 17 * * * * * 18 19 20 21 22 ??